Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 66

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This is the change I found myself having to revert yesterday when I added legitimate information. Someone else had done a revert but had not eliminated the offending text.

I don't know what Spanish Wikipedia's policy is on American radio stations. I'm sure there are Spanish speakers who would have enjoyed reading this information. But to those of us who don't speak the language, it's useless. We don't even know if the person was violating other policies. It was an IP that added it so there doesn't seem to be a point in going to the talk page. I wasn't monitoring this article but it had been there a long time.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:15, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Rather odd Spanish: no accents or capitals, when there should certainly be some of both. I don't know enough to tell whether there's anything else wrong. Peter jackson (talk) 10:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

But I was correct to remove it, right?Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 13:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

That paragraph which Vchimpanzee removed was added by an IP on September 2008. It was vandalism pure and simple. IMO what is more important in this case is that the vandalism was allowed to stay in place for 10 months. Nobody is watching the page.
I believe differently, IMO every page should under constant watch of at least 1 edtior at all times. The reason for that is to ensure that articles do not transmit false information or vandalism, both of which reduce Wikipedia's credibility and quality.
If you scroll down you will see that I support that proposal as well. There is just one thing: What happens when an article is being watched by an inactive editor?

What confuses me is that someone reverted some of the Spanish content but not all. I guess it was about where it was.

I should have been watching it since I contributed so much to it. I'm about 2 years behind on Broadcasting & Cable and one thing I do when I look at that is add sales of radio stations to the stations' articles, if they're stations that interest me. I spent most of Tuesday afternoon on articles that were just related to one of the stations sold, because I remembered there was a red link to either that station or one connected with it, in an article I contributed heavily to.

And then of course WCXN was one of the stations sold during the time period I was covering.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I wanted to bring this up for community discussion. With recent events surrounding the formation of exclusive editor groups within Wikipedia, also the closure of the recent MFD concerning WP:AEE, and it's possible activation as a group, I was wondering about these groups and possible group voting/disruptions? Here is the feasible scenario: The community is discussing and voting to change the rules concerning admins to give them more oversight. An exclusive editor group, with selective membership, has decided they do not like the change and decides to gum up the works, by disrupting both the vote and/or discussion. It can be shown that the group all have been moving in concert per the group to stop the change. Is there a policy that would cover such disruptions by the editor group or should there be an amendment to a policy to cover such a situational.

Another thing to consider that is related to the disruption by an exclusive editor group is that same editor group deciding to block vote in favor or against someone or something. If it can be shown that everyone in the group is block voting (I.E. casting their vote the way the group wants them too.) should we count those votes, discount those votes, or throw them out completely? Just some thoughts for discussion. Brothejr (talk) 23:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I've been observing a collection of new editors making an article at Nguyen Ngoc Bich Ngan‎, and it seems that all of the sources are primarily Vietnamese-language newspapers. There is an english language source, but that seems to be self published by the subject of the article. I did a search both here and through WP:CITE, and it seems that policy states that while english language sources are preferable if none exist or are of lesser quality than foreign language sources then the foreign language sources can suffice.

I guess I'm trying to get my head around how we can guard against vanity articles or BLP concerns when all the sources are nonenglish. How can the primarily english speaking editors on en.wikipedia apply WP:V to articles sourced in other languages? Syrthiss (talk) 15:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Foreign Editors enrich this Wikipedia tremendously since in-depth English sources on most foreign related affairs simply don't exist.
As most Brazilian editors, I use sources in Portuguese all the time and I would be incensed if I were required to translate them or do anything about them.

Surely the editors of the Nguyen Ngoc Bich Ngan articles aren't the Wikipedia editors capable of reading Vietnamese. Find someone to help. If something specific is suspicious, first ask the editor in question for a translation (if I remember correctly, there is a guideline that says foreign language sources should be translated to English upon request). It would be overkill and burdensome to ask for everything to be translated so be specific. Then find another editor who can read the language and ask for assistance. At the very least they can tell you if the translation was reasonably accurate. Finding other editors who know the language shouldn't be too hard. Look for articles related to Vietnam, read the discussions, and pick someone who seems to be fair-minded and knowledgeable. Readin (talk) 04:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You can also try running the articles through an automated translator which won't produce good prose but will give you a general idea of what the source says. seems to support Vietnamese. is also very good in general, but doesn't currently support Vietnamese. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

A discussion about sending email to OTRS and users privacy is taking place in Wikipedia Village pump (miscellaneous), Please participate. Mpics (talk) 05:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone thought of a possible group that would keep users out of the recent changes list? I know that there are many editors who are squeaky clean in their contributions, and the whole autoreviewer group is there, but why not have a whole autochange group? I can see where people would not like this group because an account might get hacked or an editor might snap. What do you guys think? Kevin Rutherford (talk) 00:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Current example against your proposal: . NVO (talk) 15:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

In reading the consensus at , it seems clear that users are generally in favour of some sort of focus group to examine issues facing Wikipedia and propose solutions, and are generally against this focus group being invite-only and/or appointed by ArbCom. To make any COI I have here clear: I agree such a group is needed (obviously), I do not agree that it shouldn't necessarily be appointed by ArbCom, I had put my name forward to ArbCom as a selfnom after the announcement, and in deference to community consensus I would not now accept such an appointment in the incredibly remote chance it were to be offered.

Accordingly, I have proposed a framework for creating such a group here (WP:DEVCOM), being mindful of concerns about power concentration, scope creep, and so on. Your input would be valuable. → ROUX  02:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

This is, unfortunately, a vague question, open for various opinions, no really right answer, but I am curious as to everyone's opinion. Obviously (at least to me) certain calculations are permissible, 1+1=2 (at least in base 10). If a complicated calculation is done using sophisticated computer software, designed and published by a respectable notable institution/company then is the resultant calculation "Original Research". By calculation, I dont exclude non-numerical problems, an example could be using software that shows when a solar eclipse in 2045 will occur.Camelbinky (talk) 03:51, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I have gone on about this topic before, but after seeing the History of Radar page today I want to bring it up again. Some editor went through the whole article which was written by a bunch of different people and tagged every sentence that did have a citation with a citation-needed tag. It totally defaces an article and makes it annoying to read when there are 100 red-colored editorial tags in it.

My feeling about this is that editorial remarks should be confined to the talk page. Bespattering an article with drive-by editorial comments verges on being vindictive. Remember that most people (90% or more?) are not editors, they are readers. Ruining their experience by filling up an article with editorial tags and banners is not making the Wikipedia better. What's next, sending hate mail to editors that don't source something? Putting huge, blinking red banners on the front page of the Wikipedia screaming "SOURCE YOUR MATERIAL!!!!", "BE CULTURE NEUTRAL !!!!"?

Unfortunately it seems that it is never going to change. Wikipedia is getting to the point where the editing is controlled by a lot of Church Lady micromanagers who seem intent on marking up an article with their banners like tomcats spraying their territory. Instead of discretely putting editorial recommendations on the talk page for the editors to read they want to vandalize the article with their 50-different types of obsessive compulsive graffiti. They are not happy until the maximum number of people get spammed with their complaints whether they care about them or not.

It's ego-centric editing at its worst. I have news for the Church Ladies: "Hello, the reader knows that the fact is unsourced. They don't need your highness to tell them." John Chamberlain (talk) 23:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

That article does lack citations and I see no problem with what was done there, although I could agree that there was too many tags.
Also, the authors hold the sole responsibility for what they write, they should have sourced it when they wrote it. Passing that responsibility to someone else is unfair. See WP:BURDEN

I agree that an article with a lot of[citation needed] tags is ugly, but frankly, I think an article with a lot of proper footnotes is ugly. I've been mulling a policy proposal, and haven't totally thought it through, but will suggests a bare bones idea now—all articles should have footnotes turned off by default, with a reader option to turn them on if necessary. It is oft said that we serve two communities, readers and editors, and we must remember that the readers are the more important community (when it comes to proposals which might affect them differently). I strongly concur, but want to expand on that thought—our reader community is really two (possibly overlapping) subcommunities - one represented by a reader who is simply interested in some information, accepts that WP is a decent, if imperfect reference, and isn't planning to make a major decision based upon the information found. That reader isn't interested in footnotes—the footnotes are not just useless, they interfere with the reading experience. Want proof? Look at what happens when an article is the featured article for the day. It appears sans footnotes. To make it look better. The second reader is intensely interested in the factual accuracy of the subject. They may be doing formal research, they may be simply trying to settle a bet, or they want to know something and it is of some importance that the answer be right. This second reader is very interested in the footnotes, because those will help the reader assess the verifiability of the claim. I summit that the first community is larger—maybe even much larger—than the second. yet we structure our presentation for the smaller group. We ought to rethink that decision, and my proposal is a step in that direction.--SPhilbrickT 15:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the banners belong on the talk page unless they actually alert the reader to an issue (POV or disputed material particularly) that could be misleading. In that case there should be a talk-page entry. Also [citation needed] loses its impact if overused. Dankarl (talk) 21:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The main purpose of the revision is to simplify the policy, and to write each section with its intended audience in mind, so instructions for administrators are no longer mixed in with instructions for new users. In the section for username patrollers and administrators, it clarifies the scope of Usernames for Administrator Attention and username blocks, pointing out other remedies that can be more appropriate to the situation.

It also includes the recent changes that resulted from the , so if you haven't looked at the username policy in a while, now might be a good time. rspεεr (talk) 17:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

where only questionable username violations where the user had not edited at all has been blocked without discussion

I would like to edit an article about a particular film. Many film articles have a plot section.

However, such section would entirely be original research since I would be watching the film and making my own summary and opinions.

If we do, we are fighting Jimbo Wales' OR guideline. Or should I just let others violate it and I'll just read the articles? User F203 (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Hallo, in most geographic articles, wikipedia has data about of the local population. In some articles, especially those about places in the USA, there are informations about the composition of the population with respect to race and sexuality, for example see Paris, Texas#Demographics, while in other articles, for example about European places, there is no such information. For example Paris#Immigration, only tells us where parts of the population came from. Incidentialy, the same difference in the treatement of demographics of USA and Europe can be observed in the German-language Wikipedia too.

My question is, has there ever been a major debate of this topic in this en.wikipedia before, where I could read some arguments for and against the presentation of racial and sexuality data in geographic articles. --Schwalker (talk) 19:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, as far as I know, these questions are usually not part of censi in Europe nowerdays. I think there are some reasons against the use of these data for Wikipedia. For example some argue that the question on race in the US Census itself has a racist tradition. Another point is that nowadays, race is no considered to be a scientific concept. One might argue that unlike e.g. the income of a person, racial identity or sexual identity are only imaginations of an individual person which have no correlation with reality. --Schwalker (talk) 07:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I had just tried to explain that there may be some good reason to exclude this kind of data, now you say "there is no reason to exclude the data". I believe this project aims to become an scientific encylopaedia, so can't understand why you ridicule any debate about the scientific value of certain information. We habe to keep in mind that the US Census bureau is not an academic but a governmental institution, also that excludes "3. Excessive listing of statistics". However there may also been good reason for the inclusion of demographic data on racial and sexual orientation. Actually I came here not to discuss this topic myself, but just to get a hint where it may have been discussed before by others, but perhaps it hasn't. Greeting --Schwalker (talk) 09:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


(unindent) There seem to be evolving two separate threads here. Let's keep these topic apart to avoid confusion:

This is an issue that's been simmering in front of me for some time. Most of my wiki contributions are in the fields of history/literature/history of arts/biography, and we all know statements in those fields aren't always provable in the same quick, definite way as within physics, geography or the discography of a band. But WP isn't about proving truth but about statements that can be verified one by one, you say. Okay, I can hear you, but very often, the demand for verifiablility is either vague or makes it impossible to include statements that are both true and vital to understanding the matter at hand, while any junk statement may get in easily if you can find some bunk source that "verifies" it (=asserts it). You get a sort of back-read text, and that's not helpful or encyclopaedic.

It struck me after I had sourced something that had been long left unsourcd and asked for. Or did I really source it? Subject: the half-obscure French critic and writer Arthur Cravan, who lived in Paris before WW1 and made himself a reputation as a violent, brash, spectacular figure who denounced ordinary thinking and just about all artists he knew, and who moved to New York after the war broke out to avoid getting drafted. After the USA entered the war, he went to Mexico, met a girl, married her and disappeared in late 1918 after he'd set out sailing for Argentina in a foolhardy attempt to go there in a small sailing boat. Most historians of literature agree that he drowned in a storm shortly after he left Salina Cruz, but there's no proof and he became a half legendary figure afterwards. I've known about him and his disappearance for a long time, and I obliged with sourcing the statements regarding his disappearance and likely death from a French handbook source. But just what does it mean to be asked to verify and source statements such as "Cravan was last seen at Salina Cruz, Mexico in 1918 and most likely drowned in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Mexico in November 1918" and "Intermittent and spurious reports of his sighting continued for many years". They're not simple "raw facts" in a Popperian sense, and they're not really possible to prove, verify or falsify unless you shuffle through dozens of obscure books, newspaper articles, old literary mags and handbooks (plus, the sources where I first read about Cravan and his disappearance are very trustworty but not written in English or any other worldide lanbguage, so they'd be pointless to cite here). Those statements are aggregates, they sum up a lot of different observations, readings and interpretations from different places. Many different people are involved, that's the very nature of it. And precisely in that way they're typical of a lot of the fabric of most writing about human sciences, literature, history, political affairs, and so on.

With the death of Mr.Cravan - and lots of similar statements, think of Jimmy Hoffa, Sarah Palin or any public figure you'd care to write about - it's also less than clear just what kind of statement is looking for a source. Quoting myself from the talk page of that article:

"...what you want reliably cited is either that "many people who have heard about Cravan and have looked into this hold that he drowned during a storm in the Pacific or the Gulf of Mexico in 1918" or "there's no real reason to suppose anything other than that Cravan drowned in the Pacific or the Gulf of Mexico in 1918". Now, both of those are aggregate statements, not simple statements of a single brute fact; to verify them - not even to prove them, but to verify - you'd need to look at a large number of different stories, newspaper items and writings. The fact that person X says that Cravan most likely drowned, or that no one has reliably seen him since the day he sailed, doesn't verify anything, and many of Cravan's friends probably clung to the idea for years that he had just decided to go underground and was still alive. Compare with Maddie McCann!

So, if you want every statement verified in terms of that "most reliable people think that (p)" it would become totally unwieldy and unreadable. I think, if one looked around some literary historians and critics who have written about Cravan, 99 out of 100 of them would say that he disappeared and with near certainty he drowned, but that in itself doesn't prove he drowned or even that it was the dominant opinion in the years right after 1918" /end of quote/

How can I verify that there were a lot of spurious post-1918 sightings of Arthur Cravan (or any statement about, let's say, the intentions of a historical person, or the forces influencing him)? Well, I have good reason to believe there were such sightings, because I've read this mentioned in passing in a number of reliable writers about dada/surrealist poetry (Cravan became on e of their patron saints), but that doesn't strictly verify anything, or protect it from being erased by some overzealous wikipedian who says "tut tut, this fact is not verified". Actually, lots of times when you're telling the story of a life or explaining something you are not dealing in simple nuts-and-bolts facts but in interpreted statements that have come down to you from your reading, from your own experience and from whjat you've learnt to trust - and ordinary encyclopaedias and handbooks are full of statements that are not simple "raw facts" like that. or blankly compiled from somewhere else. If we want articles here to be sensible and to the point, it's not useful to be fundamentalistic all the time about "must be verified" on every statement seen as an atomic fact because many of them 'are not atomic facts, and never can be.

Moreover, I know cases where I've had key facts that I know are totally certain - because known to me from archive documents, from interviews I've made myself, or from news items I've seen, news pieces of a kind that would have been corrected had the salient fact been wrong - but which couldn't be sourced because those sources were not freely available online. Now, most wikipedians are not so stupid as to say straight out "it must be true because I read it in such and such a book", any and every book, but in reality, a book - any book, and preferably in English - often seems to count as a better source here than a safe fact from an archive file or something that's from the horse's mouth and which can be verified ten times over by different people.Strausszek (talk) 22:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Googlebooks have dozens of accounts of Cravan+Loy story in public access. No controversies here. Pick whatever you think is reliable (more reliable than others) and insert the ref. Simple. NVO (talk) 09:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

WikiJournal? I would like to know people's opinion and get assistance with the idea. I think it has promise, but then again, I came up with the idea. Irbisgreif (talk) 20:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I've opened an RfC on the subject at . Please participate. — Coren (talk) 01:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a "Policy" or "Proposal" discussion, so please feel free to move this if it is felt that it belongs in "Proposal".

There is a proposal to create an Appeal Committee for sanctions imposed by administrators or the community, responsibility held until now by the Arbitration Committee, and an Appeal policy as well. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Cenarium (talk) 01:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me if I don`t speak good in English, I am not English, I am Romanian, I have a call for en.wp, I saw that many new users aren`t encountered when it is a big Welcoming committee. On ro.wp is an extension Media Wiki (), this is the solution because en.wp can also have this extension. This thing can solve the problem of unencountered users.--Bourgetalk 13:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

commons:Commons:Licensing/Justifications is now linked from Wikipedia:Contact us/Photo submission. As such, it's a high visibility (and it should be, as it addresses some FAQ that were not answered before). Any ideas how to further improve it are welcomed. Are any convincing arguments missing? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia could very well split if WP:ATHLETE were to be changed. Now I believe that changing it would spark a crisis of unseen proportions since many Editors would become outraged and demand emancipation or transfer of data to a "new Wiki". There is very little reason to deny transferring the data since the other option is deleting.

This "new Wiki" could in the worst case begin a process of balkanization of Wikipedia bringing about the end of the Project itself or at the very least it could lead to the birth of a competing Wikipedia project, something that doesn't exist today. Either way Wikipedia would weaken itself tremendously.

So in the very unlikely case in which consensus is achieved to change WP:ATHLETE the price of this change is potentially so high that is better to learn to live with it.

Those that advocate changing that policy should also take into consideration the consequences because believing that tens of thousands of articles would be deleted without fierce opposition is a mistake. EconomistBR 21:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

[undent]I think that the discussion that prompted this section is at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people).--Hjal (talk) 04:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Good question, Cameron. If hundreds, or even thousands upon thousands of articles don't meet our guidelines, then why is a new wiki with new guidelines a problem? Conservapedia would probably be one, albeit milld, example of Balkanazation. I hardly ever hear of it. A new wiki does not equal a riot. I just re-read your comment, Cameron, and I am stating for the record that I think I misinterpreted it.--I dream of horses (T) @ 18:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I have been in a discussion on a talk page, and the issue being discussed is the "Official Name" of a country whose the first language is not English.

One group of editors states that the name as stated in the constitution of the country, though not in English, is the "Official Name".

Another group of editors states that the name given by English-speaking governments is the "Official Name" of that country.

How exactly is the "Official Name" of a non-English speaking country determined on Wikipedia?

In articles about a book, is there any formal policy regarding having to cite the book itself in synopsis and character sections, or any sections where the book itself is being described, rather than discussed.

I was just looking at The Handmaid's Tale article, and the first thing I really noticed is loads of [citation needed] tags in the synopsis and character lists. It looks ugly and stupid, and seems pointless since the source is the book itself.

Some of that articles authors feel that WP:V requires every item from the book must be cited with edition, page and paragraph numbers. This seems terribly pedantic to me, and makes the whole article look messy for almost no benefit.

Of course you do need edition/page/para citations to the book for discussion and explanation of it's contents, especially where they rely on individual passages or phrases within it. And you need them if noting differences between editions and translations; but does the Animal Farm article need a citation that Snowball was a pig, or that the plot featured the animals working on a windmill?

A limited search here failed to turn up discussion of this, so I thought I'd ask here.. Am I missing something on the WP:V pages, or not interpreting them right? I guess this would apply to some other media types (plays, films, shows, etc.) too. EasyTarget (talk) 13:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by EasyTarget (talkcontribs) 14:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks all, that is useful info. EasyTarget (talk) 14:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Not sure it is best to leave citation of the plot synopsis implicit, though. You might consider indicating page numbers (or ranges) corresponding at least to major plot elements. But, yes, the book itself should be citable for this. - Jmabel | Talk 15:03, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Citations about the plot summary itself, however, may refer to the primary source - the work of fiction itself
"
[I]n the last few months, the online encyclopedia Wikipedia has been engulfed in a furious debate involving psychologists who are angry that the 10 original Rorschach plates are reproduced online, along with common responses for each.[...]
""
They are pitted against the overwhelming majority of Wikipedia’s users, who share the site’s “free culture” ethos, which opposes the suppression of information that it is legal to publish.

I didn't know about that, the Rorschach test article is currently fully-protected. Despite months of controversy the plates remained in display. I am glad Editors were around to make sure that Wikipedia policy was respected and observed. EconomistBR 15:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I have question concerning the creation of an article. I want to create an article on a book that was published with a print-on-demand. Is that viable in the eyes of wikipedia?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Elipomerleau (talkcontribs) 15:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm hoping someone can point me to a Wikipedia policy that provides guidelines regarding the extent to which making a significant effort to provide worldwide content is desirable/appropriate. I haven't been able to find an applicable policy or guideline -- heck, I can't even find the "globalize" message template anymore.

If there isn't a policy you can point me to, here's the problem I'm running into.

I'm working with a small group of editors on a series of articles about dyslexia. The vast majority of dyslexia research has been done on English-speakers. There is some information about dyslexia in European languages, and there is a growing base of information about Chinese-based dyslexia.

There are some topics where differences between English speaking countries is required, for example differences between the US and UK, especially in terminology. That's pretty easy to deal with. There are a couple of articles where we have a reasonable amount of information unrelated to the US/UK (see Orthographies and dyslexia -- where there are discussions about how different writing systems affect how dyslexia manifests in individuals). That's pretty straightforward also.

The problem is that trying to globalize *everything* in these articles is becoming very awkward. There are lots of places where the only verifiable information is about dyslexia in English, but it's easy to see that this is an area where there are probably differences for dyslexia in other languages --- there's just no comparable information for anything other than English. And trying to organize the information is so awkward that we're ending up with section that are pretty contorted because we're trying to approach the topics from a worldwide view. This means a much less usable article for the vast majority of our audience.

For an example of what I mean, see the "Signs and symptoms" section of dyslexia. Most of the research we have about symptoms is based on alphabetic languages. Someday there will be comparable information about dyslexia in other writing systems, but it's not there today. Take a look and I think the organization problem will be pretty obvious.

Some of the best books about dyslexia write most of the content assuming they're talking about dyslexia in English -- English-speakers are their primary audience after all -- and then they include a section or chapter called something like "Dyslexia Around the World" that addresses the non-English information that is available. Would this be a defensible approach for Wikipedia articles?

Look at this diff: Was I correct to revert it? There's no source, but if I can remember to do it when I have time, I'll look and see if I can find acceptable sources for the statements that were already in the article. Somehow I think the additions by this one person are just the ranting of someone who is mad, though if a source could be provided I suppose we could present the alternate point of view.

Actually, looking at what I restored, some of that also looks like biased ranting.

I've seen a history of this radio station that presents many of the facts, but I never used it because I would have to rework the article so much and I don't want to mess up what appear to be facts the way I have heard them. Unfortunately, the Asheville Citizen-Times online archive doesn't go back this far, so I can't use the articles I've seen as sources. When I go to Asheville, North Carolina, I'm just passing through and going to microfilm is out of the question for me.

I have written to and received a reply from Jesse Helms on this issue so I know it was important to him.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 16:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I , and wanted to know if perhaps some of you would consider contributing to the discussion happening there. ---kilbad (talk) 20:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I know this may be something more to discuss on Meta, but I want to lay the groundwork here. Has the Wikimedia Foundation ever thought about sending up some of their DMCA's and C&D's and such to Chilling Effects? 22:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The intent of the article Great Repeal Bill is, apparently, to enable UK citizens to make proposals for the bill's content by editing and making suggestions in the wikipedia article, according to the telegraph: . Are we happy to have wikipedia coopted for this purpose? Would we like to remove the article line "Members of the public are able to add to the list of laws and rules to be repealed in the draft of the Bill below", and thereafter patrol the page? Contact Mr. Carswell & suggest he set up his own wiki page? --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

As it stands our categorization system is borked beyond usable for the most part. too many times are things nested down in sub sub sub sub categories to the point where its impossible to find. My suggestion would make things a lot easier. we create super categories. IE all TV stations not only go into the appropriate localized sub categories but also part of a single massive category that may or may not be a hidden cat. If I want to find a tv station article I dont want to have to search 30 sub categories. why dont we have these types of super categories. we have them for free/non-free images. it makes things a lot easier to work with. βcommand 21:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

[outdent] Could we tone down the hyperbole? Categories are not a complete disaster. Very many categories & subcategories work very effectively in drawing together lists of articles concerned with the same subject area. That being established, I grant that there are issues with them - not least the two pointed out here - 1. inability to see members of subcategories from a high level, meaning one has to hunt around in multiple cats to find an article 2. loops & other illogicalities which affect, in particular, bots. One does not tend to solve problems by misidentifying them.

Meanwhile, it is worth remembering Jack Spratt and his esteemed wife: subcategorisation works well for some purposes, and badly for others.

I'd be happier to see a mediawiki solution allowing articles in child categories to be seen from a parent, if wanted, than that we start proliferating categories; not least since these proliferated categories wouldbe placed in the hands of the selfsame people who allegedly borked the original category system. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The question arises as to whether eponymous categories should be placed in (made subcategories of) the categories which their corresponding articles belong to. Logically they usually should not (for example, France belongs to Category:European countries, but Category:France does not constitute a subset of European countries).

I have a user with which I have recently come in contact. I see there have been some problems for this user before, including a RFC, and the behavior has not been modified. What is the next step? I seriously doubt another RFC would be of help. And this seems too minor for the Arbitration Committee. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:04, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Some articles list the names of their topic in various other languages. For example, Asparagus has this:

It is known in French and Dutch as asperge, in Italian as asparago (old Italian asparagio), in Portuguese as espargo hortense, in Spanish as espárrago, in German as Spargel, in Hungarian as spárga.

The Sanskrit name of Asparagus is Shatavari and it has been historically used in India as a part of Ayurvedic medicines.In Kannada, it is known as Ashadhi, Majjigegadde or Sipariberuballi.

Huntsmen are called chasseurs in French, cazadores in Spanish, Jäger in German and caçadores in Portuguese.

What is the use of that? Wikipedia is not a multilingual dictionary, and the selection of languages seems quite arbitrary; why not extend the Asparagus list with "", and the Huntsmen list with: "" – which could probably be expanded with dozens of other languages that have words for these concepts. And then, why not list the word for "shoe" in multiple languages in the article Shoe, and so on?

in Basque as zainzuri, in Chinese as 芦笋, in Czech as chřest lékařský, in Erzya as ведунтикше, in Greek as σπαράγγι, in Japanese as アスパラガス, in Lithuanian as vaistinis smidras, in Persian as مارچوبه, in Turkish as kuşkonmaz, in Upper Sorbian as prawy hromak, and in Urdu as ہلیونjægersoldater in Danish, jagers in Dutch, jeger in Norwegian, szaserzy in Polish, vânători in Romanian, cazadores in Spanish, and jägare in Swedish

For some examples of articles with quite extensive lists, see At sign#"Commercial at" in other languages, Evil eye#Names in various languages, and Mille-feuille#Alternative names. Such enumerations are typically unsourced and, once established, attract additions (possibly based on "original research", like my additions for names for asparagus and huntsmen above).

Question: Is there some Wikipedia rule or guideline explicitly discouraging this kind of lists? If not, should there be?  --Lambiam 15:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Good point, it's getting worse I think. I've seen lists of translated names in other scripts too (e.g. chinese, indian). So I can't even read them. I've started to delete the lists. Be bold. MCG 22:59, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

why it is not used?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.218.157.173 (talk) 13:43, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

yes, that is exactly what i am asking. thank you, i will read it and i will return if i find something that can be improved.

i am in Greece. if i was in the UK i would sign the petition immediately. --88.218.157.173 (talk) 17:59, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Fresh eyes would be appreciated at . SlimVirgin talk|contribs 03:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello! I see that nobody took note at my call. Apart of this thing I think that the sentence Thank you for your contributions from the template Welcome is not necessary, because are new users who haven`t contribs but they should be encountered.--Bourgetalk 14:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

There's little point in welcoming people who haven't edited yet (and it can be bad for various reasons, one of them being that it makes their talk pages blue instead of red). I generally think that welcoming people that you have no connection with is pointless. Welcomes by people interested in the same subject area as you give you a useful point of contact, but welcoming for the sake of welcoming isn't all that useful. Just my opinion, of course. Kusma (talk) 16:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

If I encounter somebody with a redlinked talk page while vandal fighting, I'll give them a welcome template. A lot of times they need help, and I'm willing to do that. It gives me warm fuzzies inside, and opening the door for help is one step to prevent the new user from being mistaken for a vandal.

I was looking at the AfD_in_3_steps page (which is not 3 steps, but it was a valiant effort), and it seems that this can be reduced to a single actual step:

And then, a bot takes care of everything else. Thoughts?   M   02:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I have created an infopage to help explain what an infopage is and how they differ from guidelines, policies, and essays. It can be reviewed at User:Smallman12q/Infopage (it's in userspace for now) and commented at User_talk:Smallman12q/Infopage. Thanks. Smallman12q (talk) 20:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The estate of a writer with alot of books have recently build a new offical homepage. I was wanting to change all the external links to everything that is associated to this writer. Is this okay? I got a warning message telling me I was changing too many links. If I continue to change the offical web page in each wiki page associated to him, will there be undesirable consequences?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbballoch (talkcontribs) 22:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I have noticed that a great many Wikipedia articles about well-known individuals gratuitously refer to his/her Jewish background, even when the person's ethnicity or religion is completely irrelevant to their lives or to the subject matter of the article.

This occurs only in the case of Jews, as far as I can determine. I do not see non-material references to one's Christian or Muslim heritage. Nor do I see references noting that a person comes from Armenian, Scottish, Icelandic, or other ethnic backgrounds.

When I have seen these references, I have removed them. See for example, my recent edit to the article on MIT Professor George Boolos. Dr. Boolos was born in the USA, and while his family may have been Jewish, his contributions were to logic and the philosophy of mathematics and not to Jewish studies or to Judaism.

Another example. which I have not changed, is the article on social psychologist Kurt Lewin. There are many, many other examples.

It does seem to me that there may be a despicable thread of anti-Semitism in the edits of some Wikipedia contributors that ought to be noted and addressed by administrators. So I guess I am asking for a policy change in which a non-material reference to one's ethnicity or religion is not permitted.

For your information, the Nazi regime began doing something like this in 1940 -- requiring, in this case, that professors at universities be characterized as "of Jewish origin", even if the person in question had been born to a family living in Germany for many generations.

These kinds of things are abhorrent to me, and I hope you share that sentiment.

Virtually every single biographical article refers to ancestry. For example, Thomas Edison:

"Thomas Edison was born in Milan, Ohio, and grew up in Port Huron, Michigan. He was the seventh and last child of Samuel "The Iron Shovel" Edison, Jr. (1804–1896) (born in Marshalltown, Nova Scotia, Canada) and Nancy Matthews Elliott (1810–1871). He considered himself to be of Dutch ancestry.[1]"John Chamberlain (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

As I read it, Robert, you're opposed to it for the same reason you'd be opposed to putting Tutsi/Hutu in biographies (or requiring people to carry ID stating it).
Likely the people putting the information there mean to positively highlight it, but it does smack of an anti-X policy of identifying subversives or undesirables. In some cases it might matter, but usually seems like an over-exaggerated detail. (As in when someone says "I'm in a class - with two asians!" Why is this detail so important to them?

Roberterubin has a valid point, although it's not easy to explain why. The way we deal with ethnic and religious backgrounds differs between different cultures.

(1) The US is an immigration country where for most people history doesn't reach far back. People like to trace their roots back to the actual immigrants.

(2) In Europe people tend to think much less about their ancestry. All those books about European family names are printed in America. There is no cut-off point to which you would trace back your ancestors. In Europe it's also not necessarily a good thing to know where your ancestors came from. And if you do, one being Jewish, or from a neighbouring country, is often no more interesting than one being from the other end of the country.

The German Ruhr area is full of descendants of coal miners who immigrated from Poland; so many that the most common Polish family names sound German to me even though I am not from the region. Yet you hear nothing about their Polish ancestors, and I doubt that many are aware of them. Until they try to get a job in Berlin, which has recent Polish immigration, and face discrimination or at least suspicious questions.
Many European societies, specifically French and German society work in a way that is very different from the US (and probably the Netherlands and the modern UK): You are either part of a dominating, ethnically (and in most regions religiously) homogeneous majority group, or you are part of a minority that is discriminated against.

(3) I believe in India, being Muslim or Hindu is for most people a very important part of their identity that pervades almost all of everyday life. In many respects people of different religions go their separate ways. The educated even use different scripts to write what is basically the same language, see Hindi and Urdu.

In these examples, (1) and (3) form opposite ends, at which it is appropriate to stress ethnic background. In the middle it's much more complicated. If I see something like the article Kurt Tucholsky, which calls him a "German-Jewish" writer, I get an immediate urge to "correct" it. The German, French, Italian, Dutch, Turkish, Portuguese, Swedish Wikipedias just call him German. The Spanish Wikipedia (and I think also the Polish Wikipedia, but I find it hard to parse Polish) is most precise, calling him German of Jewish descent. (There was no cherry-picking; I reported every page I looked at.) Tucholsky had Jewish parents, his father was a banker. He formally left the Jewish community in 1914 (aged 24) and became a Protestant in 1918. He was a socialist who wrote against the nazis from early on, but his work contains formulations about Jewish industrialists that are now classified as antisemitic. Calling him "German-Jewish" is very culturally insensitive. Hans Adler 08:16, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

books stating whether someone was Jewish or not censored of that material
"That's how THEY operate!!!". Who? Nazis whose entire mission is to scrub the idea that some Joe-nobody was Jewish? Yes, that sounds reasonable.
In some cases it isn't relevant who came from Canada before their acting career, unless that Canadian status stood out. Ditto, I'd say, with Jewishness. If it changed their life, list it. If not, like blood types, while it interests someone it isn't of a ton of relevance.
As I see it, the point would be to cut the reference to Jewish, Canadian, or Type-O, when it doesn't change the story. Obviously it changes many people's stories, but for many other it does not. If WP is not the place for everything then surely the call is to be made based on when it improves articles, not your religious sensibilities. If someone didn't self identify Jewish to call them that just artificially inflates religious significance ala Mormon post-death conversions.

In addition to the points made by Doc Tropics and Hans Adler, I add the following: It has been asked several times by several editors in several places (including Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Miki Sawaguchi) why so many articles on anime characters, Japanese pop stars, and the like have their blood types listed in the lead section. The answer can in part be found in Blood types in Japanese culture. Not everyone's idea of what the defining characteristics of people are, is the same as one's own. Uncle G (talk) 15:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

No, but we don't put blood type for everyone just for potential Japanese interest, or Astrological signs, etc, except where relevant (ie, to the bio at hand). If someone believes they're OBneg (as a personality-type), or Taurus, it'll change their life, but if they don't believe in these things they're fluff.
A biography of Richard Feynman should mention he was Jewish because that fact changed his life (family, treatment in school) despite his lack of personal belief. But the bio probably shouldn't contain his astrological sign because I've never seen any mention it was relevant.

Could someone look at and see if the user has a valid concern?Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I often want to copy both the main article and the discussion page (maybe the history page too) but they all come down with different titles.

I think they should all begin with the same title as the main article. Instead of, for example,

So they will be shown together on my disk, instead of the main article in the Ns and the talk page in the Ts.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.203.102 (talk) 20:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

It grieves me with the discomfort perhaps only felt by the smaller partner that in accounts of the nationality of scientists who are my countrymen that I should find them continually described within Wikipedia as "British" - e.g. Kelvin, whereas English scientists e.g. Darwin are English. This is a significant part of the reason why when I travel abroad I am assumed to be English as my country's contribution to the world is not assumed to go beyond men in skirts.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.96.153 (talk) 09:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

here we can see that george roy hill (movie director) is sorted under "H" :

in the article, we can read "He was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota, to George Roy and Helen Frances Owens Hill" so his father's name was roy : shouldn't he be sorted under "R" ? kernitou talk 07:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Fresh eyes should be appreciated at . Should WP:NOT say the policies are "descriptive, not prescriptive" or "descriptive as well as prescriptive"? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 09:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

is off-wiki canvassing against policy? should it be if the canvassing is for a conroversial article, where people were links sites that have now been added to badsites?
Where should I report it, and what happens? Remember Civility (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

A discussion regarding per station TV schedules and WP:NOT has begun at . Your input would be welcome. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 22:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I want to check if you all think these subjects meet notability standards before working them up. Would lists for the show Jeopardy! be considered notable? Specifically, (unsure on name, ), List of largest single-day Jeopardy! winnings (), and lists for the Tournament of Champions and Teen/College championships? The show is quite notable and while few contestants are notable besides Ken Jennings it provides pretty significant EV on the show (even if most contestants are unlinked). Staxringold talkcontribs 23:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Our english wiki pages have many links to articles in the Netherlands wiki. The list at the top of the pages is titled "Languages". Accordin to List of languages by name there is no language "Nederlands". I believe the language to be "Dutch". Is "Nederlands" wrong or should the list title be "Countries"? -- SGBailey (talk) 09:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, currently, I participate a process to translate Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and import that to JaWp. Since WP:NOT is a Global Principle according to the right box of the page, I naturally insist to import this document as it is without modifications, at least without major modifications for basic key concepts such as Wikipedia:Consensus.

In a final phase to fix the final translated version, a user appeared and claimed that he cannot agree to apply WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY to JaWp, since it's not properly to reflect the current JaWp manner, etc.(dunno what exactly he intends to mean, but the bottom line is he doesn't agree to import these 2 sections of WP:NOT).

Obviously, WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY includes a significant Wp Global Principe - Wikipedia:Consensus, so I explained him that WP:NOT is not a mere policies but a Global Princile including singificant Wp concpet. Basically, he won't listen claiming JaWp is somewhat independent of EnWp, and this discussion is still open in JaWp.

Another user suggested me to ask an official statement from Wikimedia Foundation, and I also think it would be better to clear how internlingual cordination of Wikipedia Policy works.

I checked page of wikimedia, but found the forum is a bit deserted, and less chance to have a quick reply. So, is there anyone here who knows well about this topic, and could you advise where to start to make this clear. Thank you. --Wp99 (talk) 23:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That is true, howerver, since I feel it's so obvious, I'd like to close such a debate in earlier stage with an authorized proof without bothering the community. More over, I think what we need is not really JaWp local agreement but the official policy of interlingual cordination.
Each wiki sets its own rules, guidelines, consensus, or what have you. Simply translating from one to the other does not a policy make. (But it may yet be useful to do!)

I asked for informal mediation in a content dispute. I filed the request and was waiting to be contacted about the mediation. However, in the meantime, the editor with whom I have the dispute has added his own comments to my request. Is this how the process works? Or are we supposed to wait to be contacted? thanks.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.163.63.37 (talk) 15:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

What would make a pilot notable? I've looked at Wikipedia:Notability, Wikipedia:Notability (people), and Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Notability and none list the criteria for listing notable pilots. So I've come here to generate a list of criteria and a consensus as to what make a pilot notable.Smallman12q (talk) 19:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments are appreciated at Wikipedia_talk:OTRS#Policy_disputed.   M   22:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I’m having a little problem with copyrights. I don’t know a lot about it all, and my question concerns linking to YouTube. I’m writing an article for Sounds From a Town I Love, a Woody Allen short film, and I found the whole movie on YouTube. I was wondering…could I use this as a reference and link to it in the article? Please also keep in mind that this is not my only source, I have many more.

I found some info about this at WP: YT, but I’m still not completely sure. If you can help me out, it would be most appreciated.

I want to ask if the following violates any policies of Wikipedia: "The Flat Earth Society accept or promote the Flat Earth hypothesis , despite the hypothesis having been long contradicted by overwhelming evidence as well as by the modern understanding of planet formation and physics, and the scientific community now dismisses the notion as fantasy." I believe that there are NPOV and weasel words in it. It is part of the intro for the flat earth article. I don't believe it belongs in the intro period, since it devotes too much space for an introduction to such an organization, and doesn't flow with the rest of the intro. But that's a separate issue. I don't know if Wikipedia has a policy on arguments it considers overwhelming one-sided. - Cyborg Ninja 02:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

No one takes into account the earth's curvature when they layout a garden at their home. They would be thought crazy. So for small scale stuff, we all assume the earth is flat as our model. The "earth is flat" model doesn't work as well when dealing with larger distances of about a mile or so, astronomy, etc.

Ask a physicist if the Coriolis force is real. It is not. Yet we use this incorrect model because it is convenient.

Again, folks at Wiki just need to keep their hands off stuff and let it be.

I have taken a look at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but it redirects to a section entitled "Is there a primary topic?" Sadly, the section does not list what criteria/guidelines are followed in determining what a primary topic is. Could someone please list the criteria/guidelines for determining what makes a topic primary? (See Talk:Bing#Requested move for additional discussion).

My main concern lies in that the current explanation (which is quite poor) leaves great room for ambiguity and hence makes coming to a clear cut answer quite difficult.Smallman12q (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

While we're on the topic, there's a dispute over what the primary topic of "Ubuntu" is. As Ubuntu has been about the operating system for years, most incoming links refer to the OS. However, there was a recent move of the OS article to Ubuntu (operating system), leaving an ongoing dispute over what the primary topic is that the redirect at Ubuntu should point to. There's an RFC running at Talk:Ubuntu#RFC: Where should the redirect point?, but guidance on the subject in general would be gratefully accepted. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly endorse this. I had to bring this up when I tried to state that the primary topic for peer-to-peer was not the architectural framework. My position was that many if not most average readers saw peer-to-peer as "oh yeah, like file sharing, right?". I was shot down by semantic arguments over what p2p really means and an argument that a hatnote works just fine (which is rejected by the guideline). This despite a bunch of stats that I pulled out indicating that readers actually chose file sharing more often than the architecture when presented with a disambig page. But no, discussion closed, despite my invocation of guideline, because another voter changed their vote (and this indicates that at least someone had a chance to read through things, and if they changed their mind, then this is yet another task checked off of the list). Well thanks a lot WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, I knew I shouldn't have counted on on you to help resolve this! (Is what I yelled when this happened.) So yeah, clear that darn thing up ;)   M   19:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Primary topics need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Whether or not they are is something else entirely.

When there is a well-known primary topic for an ambiguous term, name, phrase or place; one that is much more used than any other topic covered in Wikipedia to which the same word(s) may also refer, then that term or phrase should either be used for the title of the article on that topic or redirect to that article. If the primary topic for a term is titled something else by standard naming conventions, then a redirect for the term may be used. Any article which has primary usage for its title and has other uses should have a disambiguation link placed at the top. The disambiguation page should also link back to the primary topic. Similarly, any article which has primary usage for a name that redirects to it and has other uses should have a "such-and-such redirects here" disambiguation link at the top, and the disambiguation page for that name should link back to the primary topic.

If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".

Tools that may help determine a primary topic, but are not determining factors, include:

* Incoming wikilinks from Special:WhatLinksHere * Wikipedia article traffic statistics (page view statistics) * Google web, news, scholar, or book searches

. If a consensus cannot be reached, then it is quite likely that the topic is not considered to be primary. If you are unsure whether a topic is primary or not, or need help in determining the primary topic, then see Wikipedia:PTN(primary topic noticeboard). The goal in realizing a primary topic is to make it easier for visitors/wikipedians to see the information they seek faster by going through as few links as possible.

The determining factor in realizing whether a topic is primary is a consensus

In some cases, the primary topic may be a redirect to a different article. For example, the primary topic for "Danzig" is the former German city of that name, but that city's article is titled Gdańsk. Therefore Danzig redirects to Gdańsk, and the latter page contains a link to Danzig (disambiguation), where other topics for "Danzig" are listed. (For the templates used to create such links, see Disambiguation links below, and WP:Hatnotes for more options.)

I personally find it very usual to allow Youtube to be used as a source to determine a singer's vocal range.

Obviously he's not talking about simply observing a video of a singer on youtube and using that to cite a singer's vocal range. No, there are a good supply of videos on youtube documenting singers' vocal ranges. They're usually pretty reliable, but occasionally you'll find one that's horribly inaccurate (like ), so I recommend checking each one in advance to make sure all the material is matched to the correct pitches.
Ultimately, though, I can't think of a better way to cite a singer's vocal range. Any other reference you may be able to find will likely only offer a dry statement of what the singer's range is, and we just have to assume that that's true. With YouTube, there's actual audio to back up the statements. Also, if the information is flawed, someone can easily notice how the notes in the video don't match up to what the information says they are, so under those circumstances, the link can be removed, or something more accurate can be looked for. Does this make sense?

I have seen these video links used as references for a vocal range and supposed high-note and the reader was supposedly expected to watch the video and hear it for themselves. The video never stated a vocal range or a high note. It was up to the reader to decide what they heard. This is 100% pure original research and does not satisfy WP:V in any way. And, as mentioned, Youtube is a haven for copyvio and Wikipedia's WP:EL policy clearly states NOT to link to an external website hosting potential copyvio material. Youtube should never be used as a source for vocal range, or anything else here. Wether B (talk) 10:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is an example of one of the "vocal range" videos I refer to. It's not just some video that has a singer hitting a certain note, it's selectively composed of passages in songs demonstrating the singer's range, and in the info section, it gives the pitches for those notes, so that it's not just "up to the reader to decide what note the singer is hitting".
Like I said before, I think that this is the best way to cite a singer's range, as it offers a written verdict of what the singer's range is, and audio clips of the singer exercising that range to back up that verdict. I don't know of any other source that can offer the latter. In fact, without the aid of these videos, I've seen people vastly overestimate singers' ranges (there are places that say Ronnie James Dio has a five and a half octave range, when he really only has three, and another half in falsetto). The truth is that in almost any other place you look on the internet, the lack of audio to back-up the people's estimates of singers' ranges will almost guarantee inaccuracy. I have yet to find one non-youtube source that accurately cites a singer's range, except perhaps some of the most famous ones like Freddie Mercury. If you know of some, please, by all means use them.
Yes, I'm aware of that issue, and I gave above of one video that's very inaccurate. However, like I said, a great benefit of youtube is that there's audio to source the claims that are being made. Thus, if you're thinking of adding a video to cite a singer's range, you can easily check the audio by playing the notes that the info section offers on a piano or online tuner, and see if they match up. There most certainly will be some cases when they don't match up, and it's those sorts of videos that shouldn't be cited, as they are obviously unreliable.
In the video that I gave above, the "scale" is simply a word being used to describe what the voice is doing in that clip. If the traditional definition of a scale is a climb from one note to the next with a break in between, then this obviously does not match that definition. Perhaps you could call it some sort of chromatic slide? I'm not sure. It's not that relevant, though. The bottom line is that the video accurately showcases the singer's range.
Could you rephrase that, please? I don't entirely understand what you mean.

This all sounds the very model of original research to me "you could play it on a piano to check"... --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The videos in question are mostly of singers who pre-date Autotune (Freddie Mercury, Steve Perry, etc). They are a mixture of live and studio samples. No autotune/pitch correction was applied to ANY of the videos.--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 19:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

You mean like the actual song?--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The discussion thread is here. Comments requested, thanks. Cenarium (talk) 11:03, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Policies are too scattered. For example BLP1E. We need to put them in one place and organize them otherwise only wikigeeks will know all of the policies. I intend to do this. When doing this, no policy will be changed. The minor exception is links might be added or minor notations to tabulate the policies. Anyone wishing to help, let me know. I will not begin until we have an informal working group (tentative name: Policy Housekeeping Working Group) to do the work. WP:Policy is a good starting point. Policies which are not linked to this page is a good start. Links to guidelines which are not policy is another.User F203 (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

This link takes me to the page but then the information disappears and I'm on another page entirely, which doesn't provide the information in the article. I don't really have the time here to search for anything, and when I go home I avoide strange sites. But I was adding some information to LIN TV Corporation and saw that it was considered unsourced, even though there were web links in the article. Two of the four didn't work, and in fact, one that did linked to different information which was, nevertheless, in the article. It's easy to just add a references section and reformat the references, but then I'm obligated to make sure the links work.

How do I handle the one that does work, even if I get sent somewhere else before I can even read what's there? Is this one for the Computing reference desk?Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 15:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

. Wiki discusses copyright but there are also size restrictions and other limits. For example, it may be illegal to reproduce a stamp in its actual size, both U.S. or foreign stamps, both new and old, even centuries old. Fair use and public domain may be irrelevant. We should have an article on how to handle these issues where contributors will see it. And it would help if Wiki software facilitated being legal for image size by forbidding a display size within a range surrounding a contributor-entered actual size, e.g., when a contributor checks a box on an edit page saying that the image being uploaded is an uncanceled postage stamp (and whatever other restrictions apply). I assume Wiki policy has to be set, though, before such an article is posted or software is coded, so I'd like to raise the policy issue here. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

First point: Wikipedia's interpretation of fair use rules regarding images have two stated intentions: to respect the rights of copyright holders, and to protect Wikipedia from being accused as a source of images used for creating counterfeits. So your general concerns are already a part of fair use.
Regarding publishing images of postage stamps, there is a long history of this in the stamp catalogue business. Some late 19th and early 20th century catalogues printed pictures of stamps in colour, and in actual size, which led to challenges and laws. Up to the 1940s, the Scott catalogue was pressured into reproducing stamp pictures in black and white, reduced to 75%, and with a horizontal white line printed right over the stamp. Although they ceased using the white line on new images after the 1940s, they continued to print existing old images in later editions, and may still be using them. Modern reproductions of stamps often print a bar, implying invalidity for postage, over top of the denomination. There are two counterfeiting concerns: counterfeiting for use as postage, and counterfeiting to make a fake collectable for sale to collectors.
Many of these older concerns, before the days of access to printers, or even high quality colour photography, is what led to restrictions on stamp catalogues: the post office didn't want people to cut the pictures out of catalogues and stick them on envelopes.
Now that everyone has scanners and copiers, I think it's silly to restrict "access" to images, with the presumption of aiding counterfeiters. If you wanted to make a good counterfeit, would you (a) take an image off the internet or from a book, risking the chance that the colours, resolution, size, paper type, perforations, etc., will be close enough to the real thing, or would you (b) go out and get a copy of an actual stamp, and counterfeit from that? Especially considering that the other factors mentioned, can be addressed by looking at a real copy. If counterfeiting for postage, a current stamp is cheap and easily obtainable at any convenience store. If counterfeiting to fool collectors, the more valuable the stamp (and therefore the more worth your while it is to counterfeit it), the more important it is that you don't do a shoddy job of it. Copying from someone else's image just isn't sufficient, and someone would be crazy to try it. So yours is a nice concern in theory, but an impossible (or at least incredibly dumb) crime in practice
Ridiculousness of counterfeiting is irrelevant. It's illegal to reproduce except as authorized. Size is a factor. So is whether it is new and those black lines and white lines you mention had to do with a stamp appearing used. How to make millions has nothing to do with whether it's illegal to copy.
Fair use is irrelevant, because that's a copyright issue and this is not about copyright. As far as I can tell, this issue is not discussed at all in Wikipedia, except where I posted about it. Since Wikipedia has stamp images, depending on sizes, the Wiki may already be in violation of Federal law. Since those images seem to come from contributors, contributors should be advised of the issues regarding stamps and other non-copyright issues about reproduction.
Anyone else publishing images, including Scott, Gibbons, or local dealers, is legally irrelevant. Law defines illegality. In this case, some of the law is promulgated by the U.S. Federal government. If Scott has made its own arrangements, those don't bind or release the Wiki regarding the laws I cited. Scott's practice, and especially historical practice, is interesting but not definitive. And you may find that Scott's modern practice conforms to the laws.
You may desire a change in the law, such as if technology has changed. But someone will likely have to convince not only Congress but the post office that an amendment is a good idea. Since they publicize the limits, I doubt they'll agree to repeal the laws. As to foreign stamps, it's possible the U.S. statute on foreign stamps fulfills a treaty obligation. If so and if the statute on foreign stamps won't be repealed, it's unlikely the statute on domestic stamps will be repealed.
Perhaps one or two Constitutional arguments could be raised against the statutes I cited. But I doubt a court would buy them. So the copying would remain illegal.
Let's advise contributors so they don't jeopardize the Wiki. Not just on stamps but on any other noncopyright issues.

After being forced to spend more time undoing other's edits, rather than adding my own new material recently, I have the following proposal. I'm sure it affects teams of all sports, but I have noticed it amongst association football club articles and players principally. The second a club is strongly linked with buying a new player, ip-address editors flock to install the rumours as fact upon the relevant pages. Obviously, even where it appears highly probable a transfer will occur, we should wait until it is verified before setting in in wiki stone. I therefore propose, that only logged-in users are allowed to edit the articles of sports teams and players, i.e. they are made semi-protected, given that these are highly susceptible to rumour.

I understand this may be controversial, and perhaps against the wikipedia ethos, but then I fear the damage of allowing the current situation to continue is far greater Grunners (talk) 13:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I see Grunners' point (having seen it in action), but Powers' point is right (and widely accepted) as well. Possibly we could talk about amending semi-protection policy to allow it to be used quickly in such cases, as needed; but not blanket or pre-emptively. Rd232 talk 15:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps one of those notes that don't appear on the article, but can be seen when editing? Something along the lines of the 'Wikipedia is not a crystal ball' comment Grunners (talk) 22:02, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

It ain't gonna happen, nor should it. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Are there any guidelines regarding astroid notability? I just deprodded 20480 Antonschraut, but looking at Category:Asteroid_stubs, most of the astroids don't have anything notable. Smallman12q (talk) 01:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

There have been a number of requests for abusefilter/editfilter permissions. Currently, such requests are being handled in an informal consensus basis at Wikipedia talk:Edit filter. Generally, abusefilter permissions are granted to admins without question. For non-admins, however, there is no set criteria. I propose their be a non-binding list of criteria with a consensus being the determining factor.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.Smallman12q (talk) 21:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:Oversight#Removal of vandalism. Reception thus far has been positive, but wider discussion may be warranted. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:26, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

At Wikipedia:Media copyright questions, an editor is claiming () that any work of art publicly displayed before 1953 has an expired copyright. Thoughts? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The particular application the user in the diff above is making is to a statue, thereby claiming all statues more than 56 years old are in the public domain.

Two templates seem to be relevant: Template:PD-art-3d and Template:PD-art-70-3d. A more generic template is Template:PD-Pre1964. So which one is right? --Hammersoft (talk) 21:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah, so in the U.S. before 1978 (?), anything displayed to the general public, without restrictions on photography, was considered published for the purposes of copyright? That's interesting to know. --NE2 01:23, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

After my vicious attack from an IP based in Chicago, I was wondering about a particular policy remedy (my apologies if this has been thought of before): Why not bar IP and non-autoconfirmed users from posting on Administrator's Noticeboard, Village Pump, and ANI and all other policy/admin type noticeboards? Torkmann (talk) 00:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I started out proposing some tiny revisions to the Lead of WP:Content forking, but on further reflection, this is a pretty nuanced concept, and now I'm proposing some larger changes. The page doesn't get much attention, so I'd like to invite your contributions. Thanks. Andrew Gradman talk/WP:Hornbook 04:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia should make an option in the preferences of personal accounts to select to show or hide bad images and words.--Mikespedia (talk) 12:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I would like the opt-in ability to exclude certain categories from my random article search. This form of self-censorship seems acceptable to me, and does not require external consensus on what is a 'bad' word or image. If I want to deliberately avoid stumbling onto a page about a certain topic, that is my decision. Likewise, if somebody else wants to construct lists of categories to avoid, that seems acceptable as well.—RJH (talk) 22:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Are these licenses compatible? Because it seems like a wiki that is GFDL is copying stuff from my wiki which is CC-BY-SA, and I don't think this is legal, is it?--Whenplace88 (talk) 16:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

The editors at Wikipedia have taken control, and that is the end. Sorry. But study of utopias show they always fail. Que sara sara.

The point of data is data, not style sheets or adherence to yet more stringent article sub-heading indentation conventions. Or whether something ought to be capitalized in the middle of a sentence not. Sloppy good data is better than immaculately formatted no data.

The hard part is gathering the data, the easy part is editing and formatting. So Wikipedia is now chock full of editors ready to pounce and make sure nothing, NOTHING, can possibly pass their stringent review without getting dinged. Criticism is always easier than creation of new works.

All this effort at "clean up"? Should have been spent gathering more data.

So most folks now are scared of adding anything new to Wikipedia. It is just going to get critized and most likely deleted. Wikipedia descends into a static reference of sorts, and folks go back to Google.

Google indexes without judgement. Very fair. A lot of crap in searches, but nothing gets left behind. Give me freedom and fair over oppressive negativism anyday.

So that is my two cents. Feel free to criticize and delete. Because for sure there is some obscure formatting stylistic convention that I have violated here that is just insufferable to the Lords of Wiki.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Oracle2universe (talkcontribs) 00:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Since there are objections to the archiving (and the archiver has not joined in the discussion), I've un-archived it. The original post may have been naive, but it's not incoherent as has been suggested, and it's the sort of first impression that many outsiders probably get out of Wikipedia, which is probably why many have responded. No need to archive it. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 23:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

People tend to discount arguments that don't get fundamental things, like the name of the project, right.

On a separate but related subject, I recently became irritated when somebody posted a comment (nicely framed with graphics and clours and stuff) on one of the articles that I had contributed that it "should be deleted because it is of no importance". The article in question concerned the history of a particular building in Namibia, a declared historical site, and the extraordinary circumstances that led to it's construction. The merits of this idiotic remark aside, are there, in fact, "Importance Police" active on Wikipedia? pietopper (talk) 20:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Wiki is full of police ... the Gestapo would be proud. Like that graphic just added on the right about not abbreviating stuff. Wow, what a contribution to the discussion. Abbreviation police now. Along with the "article importance" police, English grammar and syntax police, spelling police, capitalization police, don't dare edit anything I wrote police, etcetera, etcetera.

But it is so much more fun to find fault than bring in new information. Easy, safe.

We all know that cut and paste moves are undesirable and more or less incompatible with the licensing restrictions of Wikipedia. Here's the thing, though, talk pages and user talk pages (and all pages for that matter) are under CC-BY-SA just like articles; however, they are habitually cut and paste moved. Bots even exist for this very purpose. The bot moves, of course, only move the content and do not move the history (and thus the required attribution). Have years of bot archiving actually created a licensing nightmare? Cool3 (talk) 06:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Not all user talk pages are archived in that way in the first place, note. My 'bot archives mine using the renaming tool, for example. Other people archive their talk pages to history. Uncle G (talk) 21:20, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I was doing some cleanup in consensus, but became a bit confused. What's the main difference between the two? (WP:EP, WP:CONS) I take it that consensus is the general outline of how collaboration works, while the editing policy deals with adding/removing/changing the information in our articles. Is this correct?   M   23:58, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that there is a template (images) and I was surprised when I saw the "What links here". I was not expecting many image categories (e.g. Category:Images of Greece) to show up and now I'm wondering why we are allowing this. What bugs me the most is that the files in those categories are from Commons and that can be an issue. It creates unnecessary file pages and categories belong at Commons. That's what the Commons template is for. For those files that are not at Commons yet, they need to be transferred, not placed into redundant categories. I'd like to see some input on this because I don't like the idea of image categories. Comments? Anyone? ZooFari 20:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Good afternoon, I apologise for bad English, I used the autotranslator

You could not give the exact and detailed answer. According to the information Arbitration policy has been the jurisdiction of Jimbo Wales and the Arbitration Committee.

In what place it is possible correctly and to ask these questions officially? SergeyJ (talk) 17:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

At the highly contensious poll for determining the names of how the Ireland state and island should be called, one issue is with the current situation, with the state currently at Republic of Ireland. This term, however, is not 100% popular due to past histories between Ireland and UK.

Someone discovered that the DISPLAYNAME could effectively be used along with a hidden display span to make the article title appear as "Ireland" (removing the contentious term from where people have the most problem with it) despite the article still "living" at "Republic of Ireland". Technically it works.

The question I ask, is this appropriate to use? It's one thing to use the DISPLAYNAME to add italics to a title, but the hidden text is a bit more of a problem. I can see a lot of newbie editors scratching heads, wondering why a link to "Ireland" never gets them to the country page despite that the page is named that way. And if this catches on, I could see similar problems developing for generically disambiguated pages (with parenthetical terms after the main term being hidden).

As a solution to a content dispute, is it appropriate to use this DISPLAYNAME with hidden spanning to help resolve it, or should it be avoided completely? --MASEM (t) 13:10, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not a plea for this policy change, just an attempt to explain that the disagreements are more or less inevitable, not caused by extreme nationalism as most people think.
" But that would, in a sense, support the state's claim to the entire island; just a bit too much so to make me uncomfortable with the idea. "
As the editor who first suggested that maybe we should be looking for a technical solution (which I see this as) rather than an editorial one, I think I would oppose this particular suggestion. But not because of ugliness or editorial complexity. My main reason is that the html page served up to users would still have an html title of RoI or Ireland (state) or whatever. One of the goals of my initial suggestion was that both pages - the one about the island and the one about the country - should both be named/titled Ireland. So in this instance the proposed solution would fail my criteria.

For what it is worth, I have created User:Cool3/Ireland that shows what would need to be modified and how to display the name of the page as "Ireland" to readers both in the article title and as the html page title. Feel free to discuss the implications there, here, or wherever seems most appropriate. I also would say, as per the above, that I think such a solution is reader friendly, and that the main people it will "mess up" are casual editors who can't figure out why their links don't work right, but this could be solved with sufficient explanations. Cool3 (talk) 21:59, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Whilst i oppose this method relating to the Ireland articles, where having two titles Ireland would cause huge confusion, this has also now been mentioned at Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom. That article has had regular requests for a name change because Queen Elizabeth II is independently Queen of 16 sovereign states, there for to have of the United Kingdom in the title which is just one of her realms does cause offence to some. Changing the displayed title on that page just to Elizabeth II (removing of the United Kingdom) would help reduce the problem (many do not look at their browser title and only see the title on the page itself. Elizabeth II redirects to that article and there is no other Elizabeth II so there would be no confusion with other articles in that case. Can the change be made and kept if agreed on the individual talk page or would that be breaking some rule? Here was the experimental change which was reverted straight away BritishWatcher (talk) 10:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I had to deal with this in the WAZO and WSFM articles, and I did it the wrong way for WSYN and WLFF. I've forgotten where it was, but I asked for help on this and got a clear statement that if two radio stations swap frequencies, the article with the station's call letters should uinclude the station's hisotry on the old frequency.

Having read that, I went to the trouble of swapping the histories of WSYN and WLFF, using the assumption that WLFF was WYAK. WSYN made only a minor format change, as it turned out, and people had already put historical information about WSYN in the wrong article, so it made more sense to keep the entire WSYN history together. There was no such question in the WAZO and WSFM histories.

I also decided to swap the histories of WOMG and WLXC. In the cases of those stations, the histories (which are both very detailed) make better sense when kept with the call letters, not with the frequencies, because neither station made a format change. It's unfortunate that FCC call letter histories don't work this way, but that's the way it is. The stations kept roughly the same format for many years and all that changed was the frequency. It really doesn't matter that the formats were different when both stations signed on.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 15:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we run into trouble over at WP:NPOV, WP:O, and WP:V. Apparently, we're trying to ensure 1) that these policies cannot be trumped by other policies, and 2) that these policies cannot be "hijacked" and rewritten to rob them of their essence. Looking specifically at the lead of WP:NPOV, it seems like we're trying to accomplish this act of "Wiki-Constitutional Law" in the text of the policies themselves. Over at the NPOV talk page, I have made two suggestions.

After writing this, I think it's a bit childish. I've revised my proposal at that talk page. Sorry to be inconsistent.

First: The simplest way to accomplish the first goal would be to ask Wikimedia to issue a statement to this effect. Then we could say, "Per Wikimedia Directive XYZ, the content of these three policy pages supersedes material on all other policy pages."

Second: The second goal is simply not worth stating formally, because it's not gonna happen.

I will not be checking this page, let's please consolidate this discussion at that talk page. Thanks. Andrew Gradman talk/WP:Hornbook 05:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I've opened a new thread that attempts to refactor the previous discussion, to make it easier for people to participate. I'm proposing a lot of changes to the Lead at NPOV. They are not substantive but merely paraphrases and clarifications. Still, I don't want to make the changes without feedback. Please take a look. . Thanks. Andrew Gradman talk/WP:Hornbook 15:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't even guess what percentage of articles on wikipedia do not conform to the general style guides of having a short summarizing lead followed by sections. Of course, we should strive to make every article as well-constructed as possible. However, I am increasingly noticing the enormous numbers of articles that have a long first section that is, in effect, the entire article; a table of contents; and then nothing below that but an "external links" or "quotes" section or some such, which is all the table of contents displays. Ultimately the answer is to reformat the article. But I wonder: is there a way to prevent a table of contents from appearing automatically if the article isn't actually set up the right way? Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 23:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Don't obsess about format. No one ever turned down a lottery check because they didn't like the format or font. If the data are important, folks readily deal with the format. If they reject the data merely because of "format", the information wasn't important to them in the first place.

i've been away from wikipedia for a while, and i can see that in last two years one of major policies (WP:RS) included lots of mentions of 'mainstream'. isn't this requirement for sources contrary to the purpose of encyclopedia which is to collect knowledge (regardless if it is mainstream)? i could have posted this question on wp:rs page, but think it has implications for the wikipedia in general, not just that policy. 93.87.231.231 (talk) 17:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a complex subject which is being worked out article by article -- what is mainstream and what is fringe? It is not that anything fringe is unreliable or unverifiable in itself but gets a great deal more scrutiny by editors here and is easier to challenge against something which has appeared in media with a readership/viewership in excess of 1 million people which would be one working definition of mainstream. patsw (talk) 15:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I think "notability", "not a mere", format obsession, "verifiable", "Wikipedia is not", "mainstream", etcetera, etcetera is just jargon for "keep your newbie hands off my precious work". No one really knows what is important, significant, notable, interesting, or not. (If they did, why are they not a billionaire on Wall Street?) And one person's rubbish is another's gold mine. With modern computer hardware and software there is no compelling reason for all this soul-searching to limit Wikipedia. If the data are on topic and not violating any legal requirements, editors need to sit on their hands. As much fun as it is to edit, change, delete, and format ... it really isn't needed for the utility of Wiki.

I've always wondered by otherwise successful civilizations, companies, groups, etc. ultimately die. Especially when they can stack the deck at every opportunity in their favor. I think Scott Adams (Dilbert) had the right explanation. "One off" activities dominate and the main thing is forgotten. When Wiki acquires data, that is the main thing, the more, the better. One off activities - like ever more rules, bureaucracy, format requirements, citation requirements, notability requirements, etc. are easy but not the main thing.

Right now the elitist Gestapo are slowly strangling Wiki. They are Noble and Good with Good Intentions and could not conceive of how their Good Actions could possibly cause overall harm.

A proposed notability guideline for legal things, particularly law cases which have always been a bit "up in the air" at AfD, is under discussion. Contributions are welcome. Thanks, Ironholds (talk) 05:25, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

User Accounts operated by any Artificial Intelligence, without being declared as AI, are not allowed unless a continuing fee is paid to Wikipedia.

AI accounts approved by WP:BAG are exempt from this Policy and need not be declared as AI.

AI accounts which are "outed" by a non-AI user must offer a substantial cash prize to the user who outs them. HarryAlffa (talk) 18:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

But seriously. If I was building an AI I would find the idea of testing it on Wikipedians very attractive. I therefore assume those actually doing this will too. They may harm the project if they do, so some recompense to offset the danger is appropriate. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely oppose this. All sentient or turing test-compliant AI entities must be afforded the inalienable right to edit this encyclopedia.   M   22:34, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I think, in short, this policy offers protection from potential damage at zero cost, with the added possibility of a revenue stream to further the projects aims. I can't see any down-side. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The closest currently possible is natural language programs editing wikipedia. While I don't think any have dirrectly edited they have been known to be involved in assisting humans with editing in certain experiments. This doesn't appear to have caused problems.©Geni 09:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Sustained quantum information processing demonstrated. This might be relevant?

It appears the purpose of this all is to promote a version of ELIZA that can operate within the Wikipedia environment, and to kick out humans that fail the Turing test (foreigners and young kids).
But no kidding, either something is a bot, and then we have policies or it is a (more or less) intelligent independent editor which we should welcome. With some of the vandals and sockpuppeteers around I would rather have a decent AI doing constructive things than many human editors.
The only aim should be to build the best encyclopedia ever. If an AI system is better at it than human editors. Hoorah for the AI.
Comments were phrased in an only semi-serious way .But honestly I have 2 serious doubts on this issue
a) Can it be ever be enforced as some ELIZA like (which is not even AI) computer applications can pass the Turing test, while some humans (especially with limited vocabulary or limited knowledge of community culture) may not.
To answer a) & b), as I've said three times already; "Policy enforcement? One step at a time."

I don't see anything in there about the Turing test. Or enforcement. Nor anything about banning AIs.

If you permit me to be semi-serious; the policy is to protect against artificial stupidity - 'cause we've enough of the real stuff to last an eternity. HarryAlffa (talk) 20:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Well your topics 1 and 3 require some kind of way of determining by editors whether something is AI. Turing test is one way to do so. As your proposal is so heavily on "outing" and "fees" it is asking to focus on a policy.

(outdent)Yes, I think that is a very sensible evolution of the idea. HarryAlffa (talk) 17:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Why does each episode of "South Park" have its own wikipedia article with a lengthy plot summary, critical reception, and cultural references sections, where individual articles on episodes of "Miami Vice," (which arguably had a greater impact on culture and probably was more watched being a network show) get deleted?

Please note I am not singling out these two shows, they are just two examples of which I know. I am just inquiring as to whether Wikipedia has any uniform policy in this regard. Thank you. Torkmann (talk) 22:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It is OTRS (the system/group that reads email sent to Wikipedia) policy is that:

This gives OTRS users, who volunteer for the foundation, though they are not considered staff, a right to censor content far beyond that listed in WP:BLP and WP:Copyright, and far beyond even the censoring right given to WMF staff members via WP:OFFICE (used for emergencies, not complaints via email). The OTRS dispute resolution process is an external, private, and OTRS-controlled method of filing a complaint. The work and documents of OTRS are necessarily private, and therefore not accessible to the Wikipedia community at large.

A recent RfC (active, 4 days old, just recently closed by an OTRS admin and an involved party) has led to a discussion on the OTRS page involving a disproportionately large number of OTRS users (which might be expected), accusations of disruption and threats to block, accusations of cabalism, the removal of discussion notices from the policy page, many words, and apparently a backlog in the OTRS system.

I'm of the latter group, and am concerned that this right gives a small (though generally trustworthy) group of foundation volunteers too much control over content. I am unconvinced that the 'difficulty' of using our normal en.wp policies and dispute resolution procedures justifies an entirely different set of practices when dealing with OTRS users. But, most of all, I think that the WP:OTRS procedures could use more general community scrutiny - I'm fairly certain that my position against this policy has been influenced by the disproportionate number of OTRS users supporting OTRS on that talk page. Though I think this will make any changes to that policy more difficult, I have taken some advice and brought up this issue here, instead.

Does this right to 'censor pending private external resolution' exist, should it exist, and where should it be described?   M   04:02, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

"Since OTRS deals almost entirely with copyright and defamation stuffs, why the frag should they not have the right to remove defamatory/plagiarized content without being shouted down by know-nothings?"

(<-)Vert true, Slim, and in those situations I would hope that error is corrected as soon as possible. However, the specific case that concerns M is when an OTRS editor removes information claiming BLP, copyvio, or another one of our policies. M would like to have that information be restored during dispute resolution, and the current policy is to leave the removal in place while following whatever methods of justification or dispute resolution are used. -- Avi (talk) 21:14, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I wonder whether there's something rather interesting going on here. I pointed out the contradiction between WP:OTRS & WP:LOP on both talk pages as well as here. People responded to my remarks; it's not as if nobody noticed them. Yet the pages continue to contradict each other. I'd already worked out that Wikipedia's procedures could be expected to result in articles reflecting the points of view of the editors working on them, rather than neutral point of view (see my user page for a bit more detail). It hadn't occurred to me that this would apply outside article space as well. But it looks as if this must be what's happening here. Most of the editors working on OTRS believe in it as a policy, but most of those working on LOP don't. Am I wrong about this? If this is how policy is "decided", why should anyone take any notice of it? (Does anyone take any notice?) Peter jackson (talk) 09:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

We should probably not rehash the discussion at WT:OTRS (which has now been manually "archived" by OTRS users). I just want a simple question addressed.

When an OTRS ticket number is supplied in an edit, that edit may not be reverted until the OTRS dispute resolution process is completed.

Does this right to 'censor pending private external resolution' exist? Note that OTRS edits are not endorsed by the Office, that they are not Office actions, that edits which are made according to policy are already protected from reverts under such policies. This is not a question of whether it is a good idea to get more information before reverting (it usually is). The question is: in cases where our policies don't already protect BLP, Copyvio, and other such removals from being reverted, are OTRS users able to enforce non-reversion, or authoritatively invoke private information to settle content disputes?   M   20:34, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

OTRS users have the ability to suppress information in the same way that anyone who happens to have flour, bleach and a plastic container has the ingredients to make a bomb. User:M's stated objections, as best as I can read them (correct me if I am wrong):

In relation to (1), Wikipedia is not a talking shop. We do not need to discuss each and every change ever made. If a page reflects reality, it is a candidate for policy or guideline status. As for (2), I'm not convinced that it is contradictory. WP:NOT#CENSORED does not give us carte blanche to include anything we like, or to deny someone WP:BASICHUMANDIGNITY. In regard to (3), OTRS by its very nature deals with non-public information, and must therefore deal with it in a non-public manner. To do otherwise undermines the nature of the information, and people will be discouraged from contacting us if they knew that the content of what they thought were confidential emails was going to be splashed all the place in public view. I am not convinced that this amounts to censorship in any way other than in the same technical fashion in which someone undergoing a coronary bypass is in cardiac arrest for the duration. Someone is reading this wrongly. I don't read it as saying "OTRS users have an open licence to censor article content". I read it as saying "OTRS users know something you don't." There is a difference between a system being open to abuse and actually being abused. Without evidence of the latter, this is a major failure to WP:AGF. I see no reason for us to act to prevent improper suppression of information unless there is evidence that someone who is curently on OTRS has actually engaged in it. Do we have any such evidence? 81.111.114.131 (talk) 00:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

<---- M, that edit was over 3 years ago before we had a BLP. I notice you haven't notified the editor concerned that you are criticising them on a public noticeboard. That is extremely bad form. You appear to be becoming obsessive over this issue and should consider using your energy in more productive manner. Spartaz Humbug! 06:55, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I got a problem now and in the past with Wikipedians Jumping the Gun before an event happens, or a company changes name, etc

The problems I have had in the past and now is to many WP:Bold edits and moves with little, contradict (Like when the official name of a company or a league changes name at a certain time previously announced), or no sources on edits on pages. In the past I have dealt with NASCAR page editors changing the series name from NEXTEL Cup to Sprint Cup before the official January 1st, 2008 name change was to take place per the NASCAR sources or right now on Arena Football League on the dispute on rather or not the teams and/or league has folded and many people are editing the pages without sources claiming those teams and the league folded even though it is stated that the league has suspended operations indefinitely per the sources stated and the only 1 source that states it has folded is a Facebook page. Now I would love to be able to site the specific sources to try to prevent this Jumping the Gun editing and reverting it if needed. Perhaps a WP:Jumping the Gun Guideline page that cites those Guidelines and Policies on stuff before they are factual. I can name a few rules like WP:Crystal and WP:VERIFY. Is there any others I can cite? Any help on this would be nice. Sawblade5 (talk to me | my wiki life) 08:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I just happened to come across what appears to be an (at least partially bot driven?) ongoing edit war that occurred on the August 24 article. Take a look at the . It seems to have calmed down, but clearly there's some sort of issue here isn't there? First, there's probably a problem with an IP user... more seriously, in my mind, is the question of allowing a bot to break the 3RR "bright line rule" with impunity, and thereby perpetuate an edit war.

I wasn't sure of exactly what to do here (request page protection? 3RR reports against the IP? against the bot? stop the bot?), so I've kind of defaulted to coming here to simply report what happened.
Ω (talk) 05:33, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

"I think it would only be an issue of [the bot] was removing potentially useful content (non-linked or redlinked entries aren't useful on date pages, AFAIK)."

Pfft. Want to see a real bot edit war? Look at the (there's more in the deleted history). --NE2 08:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Nobles, peers, peeresses are often the target of speedy deletion or an attempt to merge. The reasoning is usually that they did not do anything notable but were simply born, married, maybe had issue and then died. The fact, however, that they were born into nobility or married into it is usually supported by heraldic writers and seems to satisfy the statement "The standard way of demonstrating notability involves showing that others have deemed it worthy of being written about. Sources themselves do not establish notability, but they prove notability." at . Inherent notability seems to support articles with information about titled nobility, i.e., Earls, Barons, Countesses, Viscountesses etc., etc. There are hundreds, if not thousands of articles where the only pretense of notability is their title and heraldic sources. Per inherent notability, an article about a Countess or any peer or peeress should not be subject to deletion or merge. Daytrivia (talk) 03:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

motives and reasons behind why certain editors are strict interpetationists regarding our policies and guidelines

I posted this a short while ago at WP:C, but have not received an answer there, so I've come here in hopes of a swifter response. I wrote the administrator of the U.S. General Services Administration's series, asking if the text and images on those pages was in the public domain, or otherwise available to be used by Wikipedia. She replied, by email:

The text on the building overview pages is the property of the federal government, and we have no problem with it being used for Wikipedia articles, provided credit is given to the U.S. General Services Administration. We are delighted to be able to contribute.

I have since copied all of the text of those pages to my userspace, indexed at User:BD2412/courthouses, with an attribution note at the bottom (which is clearly permissible use under the express license granted by the GSA). Does the permission provided by the GSA suffice to permit our use of the material once it has been modified to be suitable for use in article space? As a matter of copyright law it certainly does, but does this also meet our internal policy requirements? bd2412 T 20:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

If something doesn't break Wiki internal policy ... you just haven't looked hard enough. And if it doesn't violate policy now, rest assured it will in the near future. No matter how much work and effort people will need to go through to make sure that it does.

Questions about US government works being public domain, are already answered on a Wiki page.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Oracle2universe (talkcontribs) 17:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi from the Basque Country!
This is a message to the administrators of wikipedia in English or for someone who can help me with this issue:

I´m an user and contributor of the , Basque language is one of the oldest in Europe and the world, it has thousands of years old and is one of the few languages that survived the arrival of Indo-Europeans to Europe. Perhaps being one of the oldest nations or countries of the world not even have their own state, but our language is our homeland and pride. It put us on the map and give a reference recognizable to English speakers, the city of Pamplona (Iruña in basque language), where they celebrate the internationally famous festival of San Fermin are in the Basque Country.

On July 15, 2009, in the Basque wikipedia we exceed the figure of 40,000 items, today (August 8, 2009) and we have 42,000 items, achievement of which we are very proud, because if we compare proportionately the number of speakers of the Basque language (about a million) with other spoken language Wikipedia in more than one state or nation in the world with millions of speakers is like to be proud.

Because one of the aims of Wikipedia in addition to expanding human knowledge worldwide is also to expand the knowledge of all languages of mankind: From the Basque Wikipedia We wanted to make the request to the users and particularly to the Admin of the English wikipedia would be possible if you put the link to Basque Wikipedia in your English Wikipedia´s language list of everyone in your main cover ("Languages" section: as is currently the case Galician or Catalan language) and the Wikipedia list of more than 40,000 items that is below your main entrance page ("Wikipedia languages" section). Since English is currently the most powerful, influential and widespread in the world (your wikipedia already has 3,000,000 articles), the presence of Basque Wikipedia in your list of the world would be a great help to supervival of our language and their knowledge in the world.

Greetings from the Basque Wikipedia.
. --Euskalduna (tell me) 15:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC) (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.86.101.120 (talk)

--Euskalduna (tell me) 22:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.86.101.120 (talk)

Following on from the case of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Claus Peter Poppe in which in which hundreds of German stubs were translated and blind copied into English Wikipedia, it seems that the creation of hundreds of stubs using automated tools continues without any regard to whether the topics are notable or not. A new wave of articles created by , who incidentally, is the same editor (with a new name) who created the German stubs under the name AlbertHerring.

My concern is that the mass creation of articles which do not comply with Wikipedia's content policies is basically undermining the whole Wikipedia project because the editors who operate automated tools are not making any effort to control the quality of their creations. For example, the creation of the article Bulbophyllum abbreviatum goes against the spirit of WP:NOT#DIR; what is happening is that entries from Wikispecies are being transcribed to Wikipedia without any regard for the notability of these article topics.

I am bringing this issue here and to as I beleive that actions of editors sucha as Ser Amantio di Nicolao are undermining Wikipedia. If we don't take a stand against article spammers now, then the situation is going to become unmanageable. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 08:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

"Undermining wikipedia". Utter Rubbish. The stubs are referenced, however short and can be reasonably expanded by anybody. We should have articles on these subjects if we are to attain our goals. Please stop this hostility and do something constructive Gavin. Dr. Blofeld White cat 11:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The article Bulbophyllum abbreviatum has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at . --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 11:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposal: Any large-scale semi-/automated article creation task require BRFA

Carried; the proposal as edited (requiring BAG approval, soliciting but not mandating Wikiproject input) has broad support. Objections are split between opinion that BAG may not be the ideal forum in case the creation is semi-automated, hesitation over adding a new hurdle to (some) article creation, and concerns that the proposal is redundant to existing BAG requirements — none of which appear to be compelling enough to override the general support. — Coren (talk) 17:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

BAG approval would be nice but I think we can live without it. I recall the discussion about the bot that would create a couple million articles for every village and town on earth. That went through a trial run but died there. That level of "large-scale" certainly requires community input. I have seen bot-created sets of articles, or possibly human-created articles with a bored person copy/pasting most of the content, in such subjects as asteroids and uninhabited islands. Generally, if one article is good, they are all equally good, and the only concern needs to be whether one article is good. Having someone check a sample article to sign off that it meets inclusion criteria would be all that's necessary. This is not a role for BAG in their standard code-checking role, but it should go through some pair of eyes, and most BAG editors should have some general article-creating experience anyhow (I hope). Chutznik (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I would disagree with this. This seems like just looking for a process that sort-of-fits the situation. Obviously automated creation has to go through BAG, else it should be treated like any other unapproved bot. The issue is with semi-automated creation.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.