Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Page for discussing incidents that may require action by administrators and experienced editors

Several deletions are currently being disputed by users, seemingly correctly, about soccer team season articles (of which Wikipedia has many; thousands, I presume).

At least a dozen season articles were recently deleted, including for some national top-level clubs, which would have a good chance of passing notability guidelines.

The "debates" started by User:Spiderone have been poor ones, or nonexistent. Discussions all involve variations on WP:GNG, which requires that a topic can be referenced by sufficient independent sources – but, of course, lack of citations is not the same as lack of notability. Page Tagging would clearly be a less contentious method. The 7-day topic deletion process is something that well-informed users can and do miss – and when the deletion is mistaken or biased, the work done on the article disappears for no reason.

These all involve WP:GNG and/or WP:NSEASONS, a slightly odd (and brief) U.S.-centric guideline on sports seasons – it was never designed to be an exclusionary device to delete as many articles as possible. The user in question also seems to say that the latter guideline has an anti-amateur stance, which it doesn't have; it simply says professional leagues should be included in Wikipedia. This is obvious.

These recent deletions happened with little or no discussion, always the same minimal arguments ("GNG/NSEASONS"), and sometimes as few as three votes.

Essentially, the recent nominations have been a waste of everyone's time, and I'm afraid Wikipedia is the poorer for it. - Demokra (talk) 12:37, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Another issue is here where people are treating the AfD as a 'vote' rather than a discussion. Three keep votes registered but no actual evidence to GNG being provided; only very vague assertions that it 'must' be notable. Also, as @Jay eyem: points out, some very bad faith comments by @Bring back Daz Sampson: against me and User:Fenix down which surely should be examined too. And canvassing and more bad faith against Fenix down Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 October 9 Spiderone 12:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with both @Demokra: and @SportingFlyer: I covered at the DRV. I didn't raise an ANI myself because there is still time for Spiderone - he's only had sustained pushback from multiple editors over the past two weeks or so. Perhaps he hasn't realised the extent of the disruption? If he slows down it might help to show the community whether the issues outlined above are actually arising out of his lack of understanding or simple carelessness from bulk editing. Having said that, if he continues down the road of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:BATTLEGROUND I suspect he will end up with a short enforced 'holiday' from making any further deletion nominations. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 14:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

If I am nominating too many articles for deletion, please can someone clarify what an acceptable number is? A WP:BEFORE search is always conducted and major contributors are always notified upon placing of a PROD or AfD. Please can someone quote the exact rule that I am breaking from Wikipedia's policy? People might dislike and take offence to some of the discussions I have started but that's all I have done. Start and contribute to discussions on an open forum. I haven't been abusive. I haven't flamed anyone. I haven't removed any posts from others. I've admitted to mistakes and changed my vote when appropriate evidence has been brought to me. If I am close to a ban then I at least need to be given clear guidance on how to avoid a ban, surely? Spiderone 14:27, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

This is completely absurd. These have all been regular deletion nominations, albeit sparse in their reasoning, with perfectly legitimate reasons for deletion. A WP:GNG failure IS a reason for deletion, no matter how many are nominated nor how frequently. Not only has a lack of citations satisfying WP:SIGCOV been demonstrated for many of these arguments, but no actual notability was shown. There is a process for appealing deletions, so the work is NOT gone forever. WP:FOOTY has maintained a list of leagues for which club seasons have presumed notability at WP:FPL for a long period of time. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these nominations other than the sparse justifications, and this is a completely absurd thing to be bringing up at ANI. Jay eyem (talk) 14:38, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Good news![citation needed] SportingFlyer and Spiderone have been working towards a resolution, which I thank them for.

Even if we don't have the power to change that guideline, there are probably other ways of interpreting it regarding pro/amateur. It involves some lateral thinking – I mentioned in my first post, the U.S.-centric nature of the wording doesn't transfer well to other countries – but, the college sports section could be a workable equivalent for top-level amateur or semi-professional teams in other countries, perhaps.
(from WP:NSEASONS)

Cheers, Demokra (talk) 02:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

For college sports teams, weigh both the season itself and the sport (for example, if a US college or university's football and fencing teams enjoy the same level of success, the football team is likely to receive a significantly greater amount of coverage)

Note the distinct lack of rigour in the deletion process, and the near-identical patterns of posts by a few interested users.

These do not include deleted articles about other football subjects, or ones from before Sep 12.

These were all articles that existed and were removed, often at the drop of a hat. Deletion is not a trivial matter. The reason, notability, has been widely disputed and misunderstood. Maybe it's fine to be pro-deletion in all cases, but this set of examples were not achieved by consensus, but by attrition.

Not commenting on a particular team (and not wanting to single out a user; I just think the deletionists should change their behaviour to be more constructive, as Spiderone has), but all of these articles need to be undeleted and reconsidered. Following from what Spiderone said today (below), I think a "GNG" tag would suffice, and then a discussion on an article Talk page. It needn't and shouldn't be a 7-day process, which heavily favours one outcome.

I think this notice has served its purpose now, as to be fair there has been a sea-change in @Spiderone:'s attitude and behaviour. He's recognised that the WP:FOOTY shibboleth of "fully professional leagues" should be ignored altogether when dealing with female players. In another startling 180° turn, the other day he even . So this ANI report has undoubtedly served its purpose, although it's a shame it had to get to this stage for Spiderone to see the error of his ways. Especially when plenty of us tried to discuss it with him informally first. Still, I'm sure in future he will be more receptive to other editor's concerns and use this experience to improve as an editor going forward. Disappointingly @Fenix down: has gone the other way and 'doubled down', claiming that legitimate concerns over him closing discussions early, !supervoting and/or being openly not neutral are all "unfounded". And while there are still open questions over the WP:GANG antics of a handful of other WP:Football editors, they are probably disussions for another day. There doesn't seem much sense in dragging this (or the artifice below) out any longer. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 08:58, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

The past week or so there has been consistent bad faith accusations and uncivil behavior at this user who has been consistently accusing others across multiple nominations. These have frequently involved @Spiderone: making a variety of deletion nomination for football articles, including some articles about women's football. Some of the examples include:

This is completely inexcusable behavior. The individual usually on the receiving end of these comments, Spiderone, appears to be making regular, albeit quite frequent and sparse, deletion nominations, which have not been solely dedicated to women's football. Describing these as a "purge" is not only inaccurate, but completely absurd and inflammatory. Describing regular editors at WP:FOOTY as a cabal, a group of "football lads", and a "stuffy boy's club" are. completely unnecessary ad hominem attacks. Canvassing individual editors to make comments at a deletion review is highly inappropriate. And simply stating, without basis, that a user "vehemently hates women's football"? Inexcusable behavior and clear violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Jay eyem (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

NOTE I was initially unaware that I needed to post on the user's talk page (despite it being bolded in red at the top, this is my first time really using ANI). The mistake has been rectified. Jay eyem (talk) 15:29, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

This is at risk of becoming a proxy "delete vs keep" debate, but maybe that's no bad thing. It should probably be seen in that context. This issue was brought here 3 hours after the deletions were (in the section above). All of the first 6 commenters here, from Jay down to SportingFlyer, have also taken one side or the other at least once in those unresolved Deletion discussions we invoked earlier – I've done so as well. I certainly don't feel I would really be neutral on this.

Hopefully some 'disinterested' admins can come up with an answer or mediation (I've called a few but they haven't shown up yet). I can't condone Daz's uncivil tone, but they evidently felt that the women's team articles were being attacked and valid arguments ignored. As mentioned by Phil, the site generally has some history of selective sexism about sports articles; both Doncaster and Melbourne have been significant clubs in the women's game, and I think most of us now realise deletion wasn't the best first step.

There are some new suggestions from both SportingFlyer and Spiderone, re: WP:NSPORTS, which I think are very promising. (Mentioned in section above.)
Demokra (talk) 02:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

In the end, I would like to assume good faith on the part of every editor. But not every editor makes their decisions in good faith. Unfortunately, a lot of editors and even some admins counter the good faith argument by giving us reason not to trust their judgement. Time will tell and I can't be everywhere but I will challenge most deletions on articles about women and indigenous people when I find that they are notable subjects and regardless of what is specifically mentioned in the article. If I run across sources in the process then I will either add them or notify others. I will not apologize for defending an article even when others don't like what I have said. We aren't here to be friends and sing Kumbaya around a camp fire. If you can't stand your view point and subjective opinions being challenged then maybe being here isn't all that good for your psyche. Civility is a noble cause and we should be civil but some of us view any number of rapid deletions of subjects we may be passionate about as incivility in and of itself. That's a topic of debate I am willing to discuss. Ultimately, Spiderzone says they will try a different approach. I am good with that. I am also good with Daz challenging said approach when there is just cause. I may even side with Spiderzone as I have in the past. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:11, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

From my list in the section above, these are some more women's articles that were nominated and/or deleted, apart from Millwall London City Lionesses.







- Also including 2019–20 Durham W.F.C. season
- Also including 2018–19 Durham W.F.C. season

I've made my feelings clear about the shoddiness of this process (in the previous section). The wave of deletions wasn't specifically anti-women's soccer, but it could be seen as such if you weren't following all the men's team deletions, which I personally was unaware of until yesterday - had to look it up and was shocked by how many were deleted.
Thanks, Demokra (talk) 21:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have to bring the following incident to attention here, but 3RR and the absence of other editors in the discussion leaves me no other choice.

Now that his request for deletion of the article Cheminformatics toolkits seems to be doomed to fail (4 keep votes, 1 delete vote), user The Banner first all the items on the list that is part of the article. Red links imply that the items are indeed notable, which is contrary to The Banner's reason for the deletion request, so he must have gotten new information in the mean time. (He later that by redlinking he "was anticipating the keeping of the article and comply to the wishes" of other editors.)

Three days later, and this is my main concern here, he the word "notable" to the definition of cheminformatics toolkits. In the edit summary he used the tag Reverted[!]. Now the article starts "Cheminformatics toolkits are notable software development kits". Because I thought that adding "notable" to the definition was not helpful, and indeed only confusing, I reverted the edit, but The Banner would not and still does not comply, even after my explanation on the article's talk page and on the deletion request page.

I believe that the addition of the word "notable" to the definition is undesirable and unwanted. If we would keep it in this article, we could add "notable" to every single definition in Wikipedia articles. The Banner's defence, and in fact the discussion as a whole, is not lengthy, so I ask interested sysops to read his argument, which I find unintelligible, to say the least. I think a topic ban for deletion requests must be considered. Please prepare for The Banner's accusation that this is all just a personal attack. Thanks, Eissink (talk) 13:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC).

Since we're still here, maybe I should add some words and try to explain why I wrote "I think a topic ban for deletion requests must be considered", hoping it might improve my answer to The Blade of the Northern Lights' question also. I will use three examples, being The Banner's last three deletion requests.

I repeat some of my questions: What are we dealing with here? Where do I find such an editor's interest in what constitutes a contemporary encyclopedia? What are his motives? You won't get an answer from The Banner, he will never give you more than a sneer or the accusation of a personal attack, never. And you won't see his personal interests reflected in his substantive contributions to articles either, because there virtually are none, except for a series of three line articles [or should I say: "trivia"?] on Michelin star chefs a long time ago. His only interest seems to be to create by destroying, which would be fine if there was a reasonable cause for such destructions, but there isn't, not counting accidental hits or perhaps those cases were other people just don't have the time, the means or the opportunity to stop him.

There is, in my opinion, a very troubling pattern in The Banner's editing, most notably in his deletion requests. It is hard to determine exactly why certain articles fall prey to him: the reasoning is poor, and there seems to be hardly any interest into the subjects and there is never an attempt to fix anything. Is it all just a play: sink the teeth into an article [or an editor?] and just don't give up and show no remorse till the verdict has passed?

Considerations like these made me suggest a ban on deletion requests for The Banner, and I believe it is warranted. Eissink (talk) 02:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC).

And you won't see his personal interests reflected in his substantive contributions to articles either, because there virtually are none, except for a series of three line articles [or should I say: "trivia"?] on Michelin star chefs a long time ago.

It is now crystal clear that Eissink has taken a flying leap over the bar of WP:NOTHERE and is enthusiastically setting out for the outer rim territories of time-wasting tendentious editing. Their complaints that started this thread have little, if any merit. The AfD at shows Eissink violated WP:NPA and continued those in both the AfD at hand and here. The addition of the other two AfD's shows nothing more than terseness in nominations on The Banner's part and the attempts above to raise them into evidence of incompetence is itself a PA. It is also a good demonstration of Eissink's tendency to both make mountains out of molehills and personalize every interaction. The Diffs linked above by both EEng () and myself () provide support for their lack of cooperative editing behavior and their resorting to PA's. Their further disruptive editing in this very thread, going from demands of action against another editor to pledges to reform and back to the same demands again, shows that their promises to reform are not meaningful. This clearly falls within the standards of WP:RECIDIVISM Their earlier indefinite site ban should be reinstated and lifting it should be contingent upon a much more convincing pledge to abide by community norms and refrain from personalizing disputes. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

has been grossly abusing another editor despite warnings, etc. This is to request an indef block.

What really gets me is that by now the abused editor had made it plain that he had serious off-wiki troubles, but Mark Lincoln didn't give a damn, he just kept piling in there. Mark then went off in a huff, and the abused user if he returned. He just has:.[last diff corrected 11:15, 18 October 2020 (UTC)]

Please can you indef block the guy. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:27, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

The vituperation of some is astounding. I have made it very clear I am not going to be editing Wikipedia any longer. It is perfectly ok with me if Wikipedia prefers to honor the unsupported opinions of some of the persons who have pull while ignoring carefully researched fact. I was taught long ago that History was a serious subject and there were Historiographic standards. If Wikipedia is happy making the opinions of those who desire to make their wishes more important than proven reality that is Wikipedia's business. I have no intention of disputing the desires of Wikipedia to propagate said opinion as fact. That some of the persons who have the ear of Wikipedia are still pursuing their actions in this matter is most droll. It is also incredibly vindictive and perhaps infantile. I recommend reading Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I was deluded enough to believe them while it has become abundantly clear they are not honored by Wikipedia if they are inconvenient to the opinion of those persons that matter. Their retribution is still being pursued despite my having made it clear that I have no intention of continuing to edit Wikipedia. In fact I recently refused Soumya-8974’s invitation to edit Wikiproject Rocketry despite a life long interest in the subject and my possession of a large library on the subject. For those wishing to beat a dead horse for their personal gratification, I say go ahead. I could care less. Mark Lincoln (talk) 19:52, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I was pinged as an involved editor, was not acknowledged, in fact it was met with . At that point I moved on to more constructive editing.

My it's gone quiet. TL;DR perhaps. In summary, then: Three highly experienced core members of a significant WikiProject (WikiProject Aircraft) have come here to complain about a new editor. -- none of them my words.

"His continued personal attacks against other editors violate WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA and he persisted in continuing these, despite many warnings.", "this editor had moved well beyond WP:DEADHORSE and into WP:NOTHERE. At this point he is just a WP:DISRUPTION.", "The personal attacks are there, just hidden in the mass of words."

Two admins have responded. Tide rolls has criticised my wording here but not followed up their shallow-skimming opinion on the issue itself. Swarm also failed to do their homework and chose to believe the disruptive editor, for reasons which they remain silent on despite clear in-your-face evidence to the contrary. - not my words again, but I share the sentiment wholeheartedly. When I say to you both that [assuming you now censure me for all that] you will of course be quite happy about that and not regard it as any way insulting, injurious, or contrary to WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA -- because you are not sloppy hypocrites, are you, you genuinely followed the diffs I originally posted, saw every word of it in there, and stand by the utter crap words of profound wisdom you wrote straight afterwards. Right?

"I find it troubling that this report of uncivil behaviour does not seem to be taken seriously in this venue"Your personal obsessions are devoid of factual nature, you should stop your obstreperous obfuscation, the guy should be let off to avoid offending the profound dignity of the almighty Wiki Gods Tide Rolls and Swarm, whatever their actual names, it seems that fiction is acceptable and fact is not to said Wiki Gods, andTide Rolls and Swarm you appear by your intrusion and threats here to be pursuing a vendetta against myself,

Hey, can a real admin do something about this, please? Ban me for whatever takes your fancy if it helps you sleep at night, but do something about the guy who came up with all those insults in the first place, that's all I an asking. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:51, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

There is patently no clear consensus yet. Hence I have appealed for more admin voices here.
Your argument is flawed in other ways. Of course Lincoln is gone - for now. He lurked on long enough to contribute to this discussion, before realising that acting the absent editor while it concludes is his best strategy. (Is he still lurking now? If he reappears once this is over, would you change your verdict? I have a feeling we will find out in due course.) You also fail to address several points which other involved editors, including a fellow admin, have all raised.
My actions were designed to draw out the hypocrisy, and hence falsehood, of "I don't find such words insulting" arguments, which your latest reply reinforces nicely, thank you. But yes, I do owe you both an apology for winding you up, I hope that you can appreciate it was in what the majority of contributors here regard as a good cause. I can assure you that no personal hostility is involved and I will not be doing so again.

As the OP I just contacted the involved WikiProject members. Our consensus on what to do about the incident has changed; enough of us now feel this is going nowhere and is no longer worth pursuing. I am happy to oblige. My thanks to those who participated, even if we did not all see eye to eye. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:38, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

May I request action to prevent user:jtbobwaysf from continuing to bully editors and impose his will before even seeking consensus at the Imelda Marcos page? Said editor seems to believe that BLP just means the page should not say anything negative about Imelda Marcos. In apparent pursuit of this belief, the said editor has consistently:

2. . Providing, instead, pejoratives such as “junk,” “dribble,” or “nonsense,” or vague dismissals like “not needed.” (A review of the talk page and of his edit descriptions will show this.)
Refused, despite persistent requests from other editors, to explain said deletionsActed unilaterally to exclude well-covered topics such as the court-established “ill-gotten wealth”
4. Treated other editors with disdain, using language that is snarky, judgemental, scornful in violation of WP:Civility (see Talk:Imelda_Marcos#Wikipedia:Civility where he ignored the fact he has been called out for violating one of the five pillars of wikipedia), crying wp:bludgeon when he is called out, and refusing to use less offensive langauge.
5. (Apparently) , without even using the “verification requested” cleanup tag
deleted citations for having “failed verification” without having actually read them
6. Deleted unresolved warnings on his talk page, not just for Imelda Marcos, but also for numerous other issues, as seen in the edit here: []

Granted, the page continues to need work. (There's a BLPN discussion at , FYI). But the uncivil behavior has made it impossible to pursue a calm process of consensus.

@Jtbobwaysf: has now also begun edit warring on the Imelda Marcos article, constantly removing valid external links without good reason. Claiming 1) External links are not allowed on Wikipedia ("no external links") and 2) Accusations of tendentious editing just because an archive.org link was used (the valid reason for which is the site is now down). -Object404 (talk) 11:21, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

"Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access."site that contains neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to... amount of detail
Jtbobwaysf has again and again repeated assertions and allegations that have been rebutted many times yet he has never responded or acknowledged them. And he keeps on putting words in various editors mouths. Here are some points of his that I would like to respond to:
This is exactly the issue on this article. Some of these editors are asserting primary sources, blogs, and decades old sources should overrule current sources that says the Marcos fortune is maybe only in the millions (or maybe billions, or maybe $168B as one of the sources listed). If the fortune is disputed, or there is no clear consensus, then it should be reflected as such in the article.

Jtbobwaysf is topic-banned indefinitely from the subject of Imelda Marcos, broadly construed.

Jtbobwaysf is topic-banned indefinitely from subjects relating to Philippine Politics.

I propose this issue above be dealt with using DS for all Philippines politics topics. It is pretty obvious that it is necessary from reading above. Same proposal as Chieharumachi posted above (before striking the cmt). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

It is clear now that Jtbobwaysf is unapologetic in his stance and continues to lie, claiming in essence with his latest comment to @Mjroots: that books that are not free online as well as offline sources are unverifiable. For a very experienced editor like Jtbobwaysf to claim these things is ridiculous and goes against Wikipedia rules. It is likely then that Jtbobwaysf is probably going to commit the same egregious behavior of deleting reliably sourced content as well as citations in the future with his own justification that he could not find free online copies of citation sources, and claim "failed verification". WP:V: "Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access" -> judging from Jtbobwaysf's latest comments, it sounds like he is willing to violate this tenet in a heartbeat again. Jtbobwaysf claims "I be banned from Wikipedia entirely for deleting content that cannot be verified". False, the said content CAN be verified. Warf is online and searchable as a Google Book, Manapat is available in print and as an e-book, Jtbobwaysf was just not willing to pay for it. -Object404 (talk) 15:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Normal Op was previously topic banned from pit bulls/dangerous dogs (ANI report), during which they were for socking to circumvent the ban. They were later unbanned with the advice that they steer clear of pit bulls.

Since they have been unbanned, they have been uncivil and repeatedly cast aspersions and personal attacks against other editors in this area. They must recent and most egregious is in an AfD discussion where they , Doomsdayer520, by saying, among other things . In previous discussions related to other animal matters, they have , at Cavalryman, , and at Atsme, baselessly accusing her of COI.

At least my contribution has resulted in an improved encyclopedia; your contribution has only resulted in pissing me off.

Additionally, they have submitted a lot of articles for deletion that resulted in keep votes:

while this isn't a problem in and of itself, combined with the hostility and previous problematic behavior in this area suggests WP:GAMEy behavior.

Since their topic ban, they have been warned a number of times , , about their behavior, but it is still persisting.

I'm requesting that Normal Op's topic ban on dogs be reinstated and extended to animals in general. PearlSt82 (talk) 13:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

User:Greyjoy has been fighting with me reverting the changes I've made without consulting anyone in the Free Rider Community (Free Rider HD Wiki). I have been reverting his changes in hopes he would take a hint. I was wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Calculus-dev (talkcontribs) 06:33, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It is fairly obvious that Calculus-dev (talk · contribs) is a sock account that took part in the same edit war over the same issue in parallel with Kanvo2 (talk · contribs). 86.164.169.96 (talk) 12:00, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Distruptive editing of Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory and its talk page

I see that there a lot edit requests that unnecessary need in Talk:Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory because i see there are more a lot of repetitive arguments being posted, and edit warring over applications of WP:NOTFORUM. And also i see there are more edit warring at Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory that is a evidence that 1RR needs to be imposed. Can admins have arguments of this, because there are becoming more edit warring in that main article and its talk page, therefore, the main article doesn't even have 1RR due to controversial issues. 180.243.208.98 (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Especially concerning pre-1999 PBS-related articles. They inexplicably change PBS to PBS Kids, Children's Television Workshop to Sesame Workshop, etc. Here are some examples of articles these IPs hit:

And the list goes on. All of these articles need to be protected for a long period of time against these IP vandals.

has made another personal attack on me for my edits cleaning up Special:WantedCategories. The latest attack includes an F-bomb in the edit summary.

Tisquesusa has been blocked on two previous occasions for personal attacks on me over similar issues:

I have not attempted to discuss this with Tisquesusa, because my previous attempts to start a dialogue have just been deleted, sometimes with a hostile edit summary. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I've undone the closing of this thread as there is still discussion. We seem to have edged back in to the too-quick closes .-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 16:18, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Tisquesusa is a productive editor who makes large numbers of edits to geology related articles without issues. A 2 week block for an f bomb after the last issue was ten months ago is frankly excessive. Brownhairedgirl antagonises Tisquesusa by undoing his edits rather than simply removing the problematic part of them, which she knows from previous edits antagonises him and causes him to make personal attacks, because she can't be bothered. Tisquesusa does have some intractible behavioural issues, as demonstrated above, but one "fuck off" in 10 months is not indef worthy. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:48, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I have tried discussing issues with Tisquesusa, but the response was always to simply to remove my posts, dismissing them variously as "spam" or "harassment", usually with an insult attached. See e.g. the history which I set out at .
My response to Tisquesusa's addition of pages to redlinked cats is the same as with any other editor who adds a page to a non-existent category: if the redlinked cat was clearly an addition, I just remove it; but if it was part of a wider set of changes, it may be more appropriate to revert to an earlier set of categories. (E.g. if an article was in "Categ:Foos in Spain" and "Categ:Madrid", but was recategorised into the non-existent "Categ:Foos in Madrid", then simply removing "Categ:Foos in Madrid" is the wrong solution.)
That's why in such cases I do not simply remove the category. The options are a) to take time to investigate the history, or b) revert, leaving it to the editor who knows the topic to fix their error.
There are many hundreds of such redcats to be fixed every week: in the last few weeks the average has been ~700–1000 per week. Few editors do this tedious work, so there simply isn't time to stop and mount a detailed investigation of each of them. So in most cases, I simply revert, leaving the editor to fix their error.

Abusive language and personal attack. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 19:27, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Seriously, I am watching nasty trash talk on my watchlist go on and on. Can an admin intervene there and sort it out. Thanks. Govvy (talk) 19:47, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Regardless of the incident I am most pleased to see Davey2010's considered response on their talk page and per Bradv's reasoning I think I would be supportive consideration of an early unblock as further disruption seems unlikely (touch wood). It looks like a little "flying off the handle" and perhaps reading a little more into something than was meant ... and I think I'm seeing a lot of goodwill wanting to wish Davey2010 back.Djm-leighpark (talk) 17:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the admins are aware of this, but this is not the first, nor second time Davey2010 has been brought to ANI because of his swearing. AshMusique (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I would find Davey2010's "sincere and unreserved apologies" more believable if he had bothered to ping or poke me as well, as the person who the profanity and accusations were directed against. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 03:26, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

I would like to propose a two-way IBAN between myself and AlgaeGraphix - which spilled over to ANI and given recently and even it's very clear we don't get on and never will, Again I see the comment today as him trying to poke me and so having this IBAN would stop his silly comments and would stop my silly edit summaries. Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 10:11, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not asking for any serious action here, just for an uninvolved editor to give Wikieditor19920 a reminder about civility and not engaging in battleground behavior.

At this contentious article's talk page Wikieditor19920 has been seriously WP:bludgeoning the process at an RfC:

And their comments throughout the talkpage are uncivil. Accusations of edit warring where none has occurred, repeatedly accusing a number of editors of WP:STONEWALLING, frequently accusing other editors of bias, declaring editors votes at RfC as "irrelevant vote"'s a brief look over the page even just recent discussion will demonstrate their lack of civility, making collaboration very tense and difficult. They've been asked to tone it down repeatedly, to no avail. I'm hoping a word about civility form an uninvolved and experienced editor might help calm the incivility of this discourse down some.

As you can see at their talk page, they've been having issues with other editors at this article:

Where does the article state anything about "neo-fascists?" I don't even want to get into this. It's so silly.

User:John B123 is a regular new page patroller, a largely-unthanked but important task in which most of his edits are constructive. However, in this he has two bad habits that combine badly: he likes to patrol from the new end of the queue, and he likes to draftify articles. Wikipedia:Drafts clearly requires that new articles only be draftified when there is "no evidence of active improvement". I asked for clarification about this a couple weeks ago on and the consensus of responses there was that "substantive edits in the last couple of days" would be enough to disqualify draftification. John B123 regularly draftifies articles for which the most recent edit was much more recent, less than an hour before draftification.

This behavior first came to my attention when John moved a new article Danzer's configuration to Draft:Danzer's configuration; if I remember correctly, I was automatically alerted to this because it happened to link to another article I had created. As draftified, the new article was not obviously promotional, had one published reliable source, and had two edits (including its creation) within the hour previous to its draftification, with an edit summary promising more activity (references plural, and figures, promised to come). Many more edits followed soon after draftification. Investigating I found an even more egregious example, Ramón Mellado Parsons, which John had draftified after a pattern of 14 edits over 1.5 hours previous to draftification, the most recent one of which was three minutes prior to draftification. Since then, the pattern has continued, and I was alerted to it again today when I was pinged to User talk:Gumshoe2 over the draftification of Draft:C. Robin Graham (obviously notable per WP:PROF#C3 with one reliable source for that claim included in the article as of its draftification). As I write this, there are 73 draftifications just in October listed in User:John B123/Draftify log, among which I looked more carefully at the history of the first 20. ALL were draftified less than 24 hours after article creation, and 70% of them were draftified within an hour of their most recent edit. (One was later deleted as a copyvio, not noticed by John.)

When I asked John politely on his user talk to justify the speedy draftification of Danzer's configuration, he was unapologetic and defiant, and the discussion soon became testy, and laden with bad-faith assumptions on John's part and (I admit) some intemperate language on my own. Eventually it reached the point where John asked me to stay away from his talk page and find other admins if I ever thought administrative action would be warranted. So, I am taking this here to ANI, where other admins may be found and may take action. My own opinion on what action to take is that it would probably suffice to topic-ban John from draftifying articles within 24 hours of their creation. I don't think removal of his (recently granted) page-move privileges or other stronger sanctions are warranted at this time, but I do think something needs to be done to put this WP:BITEy behavior in check. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

To correct the opening post, I patrol at both the front and back of the NPP. Patrolling at the front is necessary as a first line against copyvio, COI, attack pages etc. It also helps cut down on messages on NPP's talk page along the lines of "the article I created yesterday hasn't been reviewed yet, can you review it". Patrolling at the back of the queue is obviously important too. As per the previous conversation, there are no guidelines or recommendations that NP patrolling should be from the back of the queue.

To put the figures that have been put forward into perspective, during the period of 70 articles sent to draft, I made about 3,500 new page reviews. The percentage sent to draft is a small. I don't know how this compares to other patrollers, but suspect it is more than those who patrol mainly at the back of the queue (where articles that should/could be sent to draft have already been weeded out) but less than those only patrolling the newest articles.

When I was granted page mover rights is irrelevant. It was suggested to me that I should apply for these rights to save others from having to delete redirects left behind. To try and make out that I've been given a new toy and am overusing it is unjust, and also factually incorrect.

As for not addressing the underlying issue, I have deliberately avoided that to try and avoid this conversation degenerating as it did on my talk page. My patience is growing thin though, as this is the third place the same conversation has been brought up. --John B123 (talk) 16:33, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

As in my previous report, I'm asking that the page be protected; latest WP:BLP violations be rev/deleted; block evading IP be blocked again; and a user check be made to ascertain a connection between the IP range and Crystal3003 (talk · contribs), who was recently blocked only from editing this article. Thank you, 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 14:02, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

This user is being disruptive in a number of areas and has already been left warnings in their talk page:

Any help much appreciated. I have not raised any issues here before, so don't know how it goes. Crmoorhead (talk) 14:33, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I encountered Abbas Kwarbai through my work at AfC. They created some 30+ drafts - almost all biographies - often in fairly short succession. These had common problems such as copyvios, promotional issues, irrelevant sources and repeated formatting mistakes. Like other reviewers I thought this pattern indicated WP:UPE.

They left me a series of warnings (, , ,) asking me to stay out of 'their' articles. I have tried to explain how they don't own those articles and that anyone may edit them, but they persist, including which LakesideMiners removed but Kwarbai has replaced, accompanied by .

Our interaction had been positive up until they were named in this sockpuppetry investigation (where I took the view that they weren't a sock), and then later I .

Overall, I don't think this editor is here to build an encyclopedia, my concerns over UPE remain, and competence is required. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 14:40, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Can a administrator of other language edit a page, which is protected to prevent vandalism?ShazidSharif2001 (talk) 14:29, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

This is a new user who has shown unwavering support for Azerbaijani military actions in the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and does not appear to be here for encyclopedic reasons. They have made inflammatory comments in their edit summaries in support of Azerbaijan, such as .

In the first edit I noticed with the user possible canvassing, , saying that my edit in an infobox "seems to be aimed at disrupting the article, and assisting the Armenian POV by hiding the front-line changes" of the Azerbaijan military. and per the Templates section in WP:CANVASS, . . Other notices about the possible canvassing were placed in related talk pages, . They then of WP:BATTLE (to be fair, I did not know it was a level 3 warning as I used the recommended notification from the Template section, but how does a newer user know this much?). After making attempts to disengage with the user, they began edit warring on my own talk page. I strongly believe that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia and recommend that appropriate actions be taken to prevent this type of behavior from jeopardizing the integrity of Wikipedia.--WMrapids (talk) 16:27, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I intentionally did not back down on reverting the user at his talk page because I wanted him to file this report so that it comes to the administrators attention. It all began when the user made an edit moving the map of the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict from the top to the bottom of the infobox. (Without even discussing with anybody what-so-ever), he opened a talk page discussion saying he has made the change, and anyone opposing it could comment. (Which is against the rules, as discussions are made first not vice versa). I told in my comment at that discussion that I opposed it and that I've had found it POV. I pinged 2 user which had recently participated in the dispute to participate in the discussion and see that the user has had opened that discussion. Following this the user has accused me of not assuming good faith. Accused me of canvassing, and left me a level 3 warning at my talk page. And reverted my recent edit without an edit summary of the said map in commons in which I've had added the recent Azerbaijani advances (which can be considered a borderline vandalism). Later, I've removed his level 3 warning which does not substantiate the level 3 added by him, and warned him about the just said violations. From which in less than a minute he deleted from his talk page. I've reverted him to give him a chance to at least read it, following which he threatened to open this dispute if I did, which I immediately did to bring it to administrator attention.

Even now the user is baselessly accusing me in his notice "showing unwavering support for Azerbaijani military actions" HersiliaAramazd (talk) 17:04, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

At , Hijiri88 (talk · contribs) and I had a disagreement on whether to include a notation of the pronunciation of the word Tushima (relevant diffs: ).

A discussion ensued here (perma). I'm not going to even attempt to summarize it because I don't think I can in an objective way, so please read the whole thread (perma) before chiming in. It's not long.

The incident itself is arguably not a big deal (and I'm not without fault), and I would have simply moved on if it was virtually any other user. But seeing Hijiri88's overall unwillingness to engage in a collegial discussion, repeated failure to acknowledge points brought forward (re: /iː/ vs /i/, YouGlish) while , and even in the face of the other party , just over a month after an indefinite block was , I thought it important to bring it to admins' attention. Nardog (talk) 16:44, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

So, you are not going to address any of my points and just talk past me?Could be an honest mistake, so I'm going to assume that it is. Nardog (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Tvaughan1 registered in 2006 but has fewer than 600 edits. Over 50 of those are at talk:Hunter Biden, and combine the usual mess of "", , and a few copyright violations revdeleted by EvergreenFir.

Given the current meltdown in the conservative media over the failure of the Hunter Biden "October surprise", I think the chances are that if he isn't guided firmly quite soon then he'll end up blocked. There are a couple of others at that talk page who are also long on outrage and short on actionable proposals for content, but I expect that will die down in time. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:35, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

"has published a number of falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and intentionally misleading stories""should not be used, ever, as a reference for facts, due to its unreliability."

Ok so I've been trying to figure this out. Larry Sanger believes that false balance and the use of dubious sources known to fabricate and violate basic journalistic ethical standards are necessary for a "neutral point of view"? He's angry because debunked nonsense and buzzwords for talk radio, like "Solyndra" or "Benghazi", aren't 99% of the coverage on Barack Obama? Who is this Larry Sanger, and why should we care what he rants about on his blog? IHateAccounts (talk) 01:07, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

"There is a rewritten policy, but it endorses the utterly bankrupt canard that journalists should avoid what they call 'false balance'. The notion that we should avoid 'false balance' is directly contradictory to the original neutrality policy.

Tvaughan1 I thought I'd start a subsection on this topic. FWIW, the copyvios are because of the amount of copy-pasted text. One to three sentences would be okay. But in the second case you copy-pasted nearly 50% of the article's content. I understand why you did it, and you were right in providing the source and putting things in quotes. But WP:COPYVIO's instructions on fair use directs us to use as little as possible to convey our point. IMO, when you're using more than 10% of a source directly, you're veering into copyvio territory. In the future, please limit copy-paste and use your own summaries (which readers can verify with the linked source). EvergreenFir (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

"Given the current meltdown in the conservative media over the failure of the Hunter Biden 'October surprise', I think the chances are that if he isn't guided firmly quite soon then he'll end up blocked."
There has in fact been a meltdown in conservative media. And yes, there's an October Surprise.
"The Times reported last January that Burisma had been hacked by the same Russian GRU unit that was one of two groups that hacked the Democratic National Committee in 2016. Last month, United States intelligence analysts contacted several people with knowledge of the Burisma hack for further information after they had picked up chatter that stolen Burisma emails would be leaked in the form of an “October surprise.”"

Not here to create a encyclopedia and , promotes evidently tries to create a .Mr.User200 (talk) 19:41, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Editor User:Miki Filigranski attack me personally on talk page Anti-Albanian sentiment with claim that I am been . I edit article of Anti-Albanian sentiment and enter information based on various sources which concerning that article. My edit is explained on talk page and in edit summary of that article. Please protect me from such personal attacks and I expect an appropriate punishment because talk page is for talk about edit issue not for personal attack. Thanks. Mikola22 (talk) 20:29, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

"highly disrespectful toward many Croatian and Serbian editors with my propagation of Anti-Serbian information"

Editor User:Miki Filigranski falsely accuses me on User:Vanjagenije talk page that I told him I newer told him nothing to email and there is no evidence that I ever told him that and this is WP:PERSONAL ATTACK. I expect an appropriate punishment from the authorities. That is unacceptable behavior and I expect protection. Thanks. Mikola22 (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

"if he participate anyhow on "the enemy side" (i.e. Serbian) against me then I would intentionally and immediately (i.e. out of spite) participate in any article or discussion against him."

I would like to point out that this a false report made in order to press the senior editor who is reported, as he promissed to report Mikola22 if that kind of rude behaviour and WP:PLAYPOLICY continues. The comment by fellow editor Miki Filigranski has valid points. Editor making the report is constantly WP:CHERRYPICKING sources (even if it means randomly searching for 2nd class books which would prove a point), looking for ways to game the system and last but not least - major WP:BLUD. If you just take a qucik look at you will witness that the editor in question is waiting for 24h to revert other editors, knowing that he or she has 1RR. WP:BOOMERANG is needed, in my book. Thank you, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Editor User:Sadko personally attack me on AnI page with claim that Given that this is the second time that personal attack occurs and this time false (although he was warned not to accuse me falsely anymore(warning from AE )). Beside that he first time personally attack me that I am Nazi falover, with no sanctions although he was reported for statment on editor @Ktrimi991: talk page, ˙( ). I ask the authorities to react this time for WP:PERSONAL ATTACK and WP:ASPERSIONS and that this time editor Sadko be sanctioned. Thanks. Mikola22 (talk) 05:13, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

"some of my writings can be seen as chauvinistic and racist, not to mention the dominant anti-Serbian sentiment, which is sickening.""This is another popular narrative in Croatia, mostly in right-wing and modern Ustaše circles."
My general comment (the second one) given to an editor who was not familiar with those circles is true and it was not directed against anybody. Do you have anything against Anti-fascism? Pinging people for whom you think that might help your cause is not that useful, only more relativization will be done.
I stand by my comment, have the links/diffs ready and I and some other editors are observing those forums. It's not an asperation, it's a fact, and I can only imagine what fellow editor Miki went through.

Or in this case, an uninvolved Admin. User:Mikola22 had a 1RR restriction imposed upon him this year by User:El C who granted an appeal only 8 days ago. It appears from the above that the lesson has not been learned. Doug Weller talk 10:49, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think there is anything like a personal attack. Miki Filigranski commented on the suspicion of tendentious editing during a period with tensions and polarization on Balkan topics. It is already visible that Mikola22 practically exclusively contributes Serb-related articles on sensitive topics, such as one of the deadliest genocides, Kosovo Myth, the origin of the names of the nation (including the fringe theory that the term “Serbs” come from “slaves”), Serbian medieval history, removal of Serbian names of towns in Kosovo, as well as the most famous Serbian personalities such as Nikola Tesla and Novak Djokovic. Situations like this can always lead to the WP:BOOMERANG.--WEBDuB (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Summary: Despite previous discussion and User:EdChem having started to participate at ELEM and trying to keep us on track in a content discussion, User:Sandbh is still discussing editors rather than edits (sometimes to my mind going way too far), shows zero interest in following policy, and continues to refer to unpublished sources. Double sharp (talk) 08:31, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Detailed evidence with diffs: Since the two previous threads here regarding goings-on at Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements, I am pleased to say that User:EdChem's stepping in has helped us in many ways, and that so far as I can see, issues regarding User:DePiep's conduct have been totally resolved, and we are working together well.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said regarding User:Sandbh; there I do not think the issues are getting resolved yet. Below are examples of what I see as the most egregious conduct issues in talk page comments (diffs posted for all).

What drives me to take this back here is that EdChem's very helpful elucidations of policy and advice seem to me to be unfortunately getting absolutely nowhere with Sandbh.

Leaving these behavioural issues aside, I also have issues with his use of sources in the discussions. Note that my qualms with his edits to Noble metal raised above were partly about whether the sources present really supported what they were citing; in this context I find something else problematic. I am unsure about whether this is the right place, but User:Games of the world mentioned it in the previous ANI thread, so I will work under the temporary assumption that it is pending anyone else who is well-versed in these areas of WP telling me that it isn't.

I note User:Games of the world has previously commented on this behaviour of Sandbh at the second ANI thread.

I go here again not because I want to. I have tried, over the last couple of days, to engage in dialogue. That is where most of the above quotes from him are coming from. And I also wanted to wait for User:R8R and User:EdChem to opine as neither have been active during the last two days, and it concerns them too. But if this is the attitude being taken towards WP policy in general, and the reaction to disagreement seems to be the same no matter who the disagreement is directed against (R8R or me), then I am really at my wits' end when trying to come up with ways this situation can possibly be resolved if User:Sandbh continues to act in this matter. Especially since he has stated that he has even after EdChem stepped in to help. That's why I'm back here. My profound apologies to all the regulars here who suffered through the previous threads and who would most likely have preferred it if they heard nothing else from us again. I understand.

zero interest in WP:POLICY and the opinions of the bush lawyers at WP:ANI

Almost everyone relevant to this who has participated previously in discussion of this matter has been pinged above, so I only have User:Softlavender left to ping. I can't thank her enough for pitching in in the previous incredibly long thread (and I am truly sorry that my opening statement is this long – that's why I restricted myself to one or at most two examples per bullet point), and I hope against hope that some way of solving this that does not involve sanctions is possible. Sandbh surely must have a vast library of sources, judging from his previous contributions, and his perspective would be very valuable if he was persuaded to respect policy. Double sharp (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I reverted some of the edits this user made to the 2020 United States presidential election series. They asked me on my talk page why () and I explained it to them. In response, they said I don't care! You do not get to infringe on my freedom of speech. (). I warned them against making personal attacks with a template message on their talk page (). In response, they left me the following message on my talk page: Oh. So you're gonna go on a power trip, huh? Fuck you! (). ― Tartan357 (Talk) 03:23, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Edit warring, personal attacks and severe battleground behavior by user

The User:Mehtar10 has only been editing for sometime but has racked up multiple warnings on their Talk page, engaged in with and even used WP:PERSONALATTACKS . They either need to take time off Wikipedia or remove themselves from the WP:ARBIPA space. But looks like the user wouldn't care either way because they show a serious WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT mentality and clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. I am surprised no action or block was initiated against this user. Gotitbro (talk) 11:37, 24 October 2020 (UTC)