Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

Another Wuhan Lab Leak page with WP:NPOV problems: Drastic Team. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, my 'puff piece' comment refers mostly to the primary-sourced interviews of members (a significant proportion of the article's sources) being weak for determining notability per WP:GNG, not necessarily their perspective (same argument applies to depending on 'hit pieces' to determine notability. And, as I mentioned, I'm not looking to overturn the existing consensus of notability, only pointing out the difficulty of writing an article about an unambiguously divisive topic, with so few reliable sources on one side of the dispute.

Apparently a leading light of the Intellectual Dark Web, this gentleman has recently had his Youtube channel suspended after taking ivermectin and proclaiming himself COVID-proof, raising concerns about vaccine safety, &c. The cries of "censorship" has meant his output is now getting wide attention and sharing. Recently there has been increased attention on his article, and particularly on whether anything critical can be said. As always, the eyes of WP:FRINGE-aware editors could be helpful. Alexbrn (talk) 13:28, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Roxy, I have updated the COVID-19 drug repurposing research with that source although one fears if that trial (the first really good one) comes up with the "wrong" result for the ivermectin cultists, they will disown it. I should add, BTW, that the Bret Weinstein bio, inevitably, also involves the "lab leak" question; see

NeuroQuantology has come up on this noticeboard before, so this AfD may be of interest. XOR'easter (talk) 23:00, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

The danger of the spike protein in RNA vaccines, according to … their inventor?

Robert Malone is an individual who has appeared on social media to (as puts it) say that the spike protein as used in several COVID vaccines is "very dangerous" and "cytotoxic". He styles himself and is referred to in such forums as the "inventor of mRNA vaccines".

Over at RNA vaccine#History there has been repeated editing trying to get this "inventor" characterisation into Wikipedia, despite apparently there being no suitble WP:RS for it. While there is no doubt Malone was a scientist publishing early work in this field (see ) for example, his role does not even seem to have been so much that he is even named in historical overviews of the topic, in contrast to - say - Katalin Karikó. Alexbrn (talk) 08:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

"According to his company website, he designed and developed in-vivo transfection experiments that led to numerous publications and over 10 patents on mRNA vaccination.
However, the claim that he’s the inventor of the mRNA vaccine technology underlying the covid jab is not widely accepted by independent researchers documenting the intellectual property landscape of this discovery."
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Asailum (talkcontribs) 19:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)(Malone) presents himself as the 'Inventor of mRNA vaccines and RNA as a drug'. I presume his claim is based on being a middle author on 3 fairly well-cited publications from the nineties on DNA/RNA expression vectors (104, 28, and 27 citations this year on Google Scholar).

So now this has developed so that a couple of editors are objecting to a photograph of Katalin Karikó. She is named in multiple RS as a/the key player in the development of RNA vaccines, but her photo is being objected to apparently because of other key scientists (read: Malone) "that have been deleted". I find it uncomfortable that Wikipedia is downplaying a woman with an acknowledged, RS-backed, historical role because of a man who is effectively agitating, with no RS backing, to usurp her. I am pinging WP:WIRED because of concerns about systemic bias Alexbrn (talk) 18:10, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

We don't need a picture of a person in that article. Putting a picture of one person in a general article is a big decision, I think doing that now would be too soon. Wait until the pandemic is over and people can look at the topic with a calmer view. Note that e.g. General relativity and History of general relativity don't have a picture of Einstein, even though he is undisputedly the inventor of it. --mfb (talk) 12:55, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

ODNI Preliminary Assessment: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena has been released today . It's a bit underwhelming, to say the least (no aliens). The abstract describes it as a report that "relays the progress the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force has made in understanding UAP", so it's possible that this could be a section of the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force article. However, the WP:RS coverage of this report will likely be sufficiently robust enough to justify a new article, and it's always possible for fringe to creep into it. As a classic sci-fi film once said, watch the skies! - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:13, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

That thread opened in the dumpster of "WP sucks and skeptics are buttheads, wah!", but it managed to bootstrap itself up to "move the image to a different section and we're all happy," which was surprisingly helpful.
...And then someone else showed up to whine that WP sucks and skeptics are buttheads.

I'm collecting potential RS for the inevitable Analysis and Response section of the article. Post any helpful links here. So far: , , . - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:20, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

The RfC might be of interest to the 'fringe' crowd. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 11:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Just reverted some edits at Bill Nelson which all but stated that he was convinced there were ETs because of reading this report. This is getting to be more and more problematic. jps (talk) 21:39, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I’ve added well-sourced “Categories” and “Response and analysis” sections to the article, which is generally NPOV, but leans a little heavily towards emphasizing “we don’t know what they are” alarmism, especially in the lead. Lots of activity here lately, so a few more eyes would be helpful. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:14, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

A couple of users usually associated with the Christian Science church turn up on this article every few months and try and re-write the article to remove any criticisms of Eddy. Usually this involves trying to remove the fact that Eddy was a practicing spiritualist for a period of time or wore glasses or took morphine. What they usually do is remove Martin Gardner as a source and add Christian Science biographies of Eddy which are basically entirely apologetic. An account called "metaphysical historian" has been re-writing some of the article with an unreliable self-published source "A Story Untold: A History of the Quimby-Eddy Debate" which relies heavily on Eddy and her family which is clearly not neutral. If you check this users talk-page they were told not to add this source to Wikipedia articles because it is self-published and unreliable back in February 2017 but now they are back doing it again adding it to multiple articles. This user is very likely the author of that self-published fringe book. This user is clearly a spammer and just wants mention of their book added on Wikipedia for example adding it to the Warren Felt Evans and others. Any help with clean up would be appreciated. Psychologist Guy (talk) 09:38, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Psychologist Guy is in fact the spammer who refuses to address the latest research from published sources but instead hides behind a fictitious notion that a fully published book can be dimissed as "original research" because it conflicts with his out of date information. None of his recent edits have anything to do with substance but rather in Orwellian fashion he believes that research that goes against his preconceived notions does not need to be addressed in a scholarly fashion but instead cancelled so that no one knows about it. In 2017 SlimVirgin, without bothering to read the 1500+ page scholarly book which was offered free of charge at that time online—and a work used readily by real non-Christian Science scholars—dismissed it as self-published. Without addressing the logic of that determiniation, suffice it to say the book was duly published in three volumes and is readily available for anyone to read. Perhaps Psychologist Guy should actually do that before throwing mud at other people and slanderting them.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Metaphysical historian (talkcontribs) 06:18, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

The question of the integrity of Wikipedia, as part of this discussion, should include these Wiki sites (not just Mary Baker Eddy) and what has been done, by removing content, to attempt to cancel Metaphysical Historian:

Removed: The scholarly book, edited by Catherine Albanese. Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press (2016).

The Spiritual Journals of Warren Felt Evans from Methodism to Mind Cure,

Albanese is a pre-eminent scholar of American religious history, especially the mental healing history of the 19th century, and her book cites A Story Untold many times as an important source work. To remove the Albanese book from the Evans Wikipedia page is an intellectual travesty.

Removed: a complete listing of ALL of the books by Evans (including a manuscript by Evans for an unpublished book at the National Library of Medicine), leaving just some of his books. There is no rational reason to vandalize the Evans page by removing these bibliographical references. Also removed was the correction of an error in a later Evans book, so that now the list has an error that a scholar should have picked up on.

Removed: important basic data on the family of Evans, including the date of his marriage and how many children he had.

Removed: the location of where the Evans spiritual journal manuscript resides. That is obviously a critical point for any scholar wishing to research Evans, and, included with the above depredations, amounts to a unfortunate bowdlerization of the site——for no legitimate reason.

A prior editor incorrectly cited Charles Braden as the source for a statement that Phineas P. Quimby travelled New England teaching mental healing. Braden said, rather, that Quimby traveled around New England as a healer and made no reference to teaching. That distinction is historically significant. (A simple review of Braden’s book would have shown that.) In addition, an incorrect date was ascribed to the creation of the Massachusetts Metaphysical College. Those corrections have now been undone and the site has returned to its former incorrect state.

Removed: the correction of a false statement that the Dressers took Eddy to court in the 1890s (which was a completely unsourced allegation). That perhaps is a confusion about a lawsuit brought by Josephine Woodbury against Eddy. No such Dresser lawsuit ever happened. That completely incorrect and unsourced allegation has been returned to its incorrect state.

The question of whether A Story Untold needs to be banned as an “unreliable” source is not based on anything in the book itself but rather a standard established by SlimVirgin (SarahSV) and others. In 2017 she defined what the book (then in e-book format only) would need be to qualify for use as a legitimate source. She wrote:

“The author of A Story Untold: A History of the Quimby-Eddy Debate would have to be an established expert, someone who is a published author (published by third parties) in the field of Christian Science, New Thought or related areas. I hope this helps. SarahSV.”

It can be shown that the author is widely recognized as an established expert in the field of Christian Science and New Thought, and SarahSV said nothing about requiring that a specific third party publisher fit into some undefined list of “acceptable” publishers. But the book does not even need to be published. SarahSV noted that “Self-published expert sources” can be usable:

“Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.”

The Wikipedia rules are not designed to ban books or practice censorship but they don’t want to allow truly unreliable works that are not scholarly and promote alleged facts that cannot be verified. It would seem to make sense before banning A Story Untold that it be judged on its merits and not just swept aside. Thus far the only analysis of the contents of the book comes from one who admitted he had only “flicked through” the book. Surely Wikipedia can do better. (And if it is wrong for me to refer to another editor as a “spammer” it is also just as wrong for other editors to use the same term against me.)

When I referred to using the term “spammer” I was not talking about the action of undoing a prior editor’s entry. I was talking instead about the public use of the term itself, as when a certain account referred to me:

“This user is clearly a spammer and just wants mention of their book added on Wikipedia for example adding it to the Warren Felt Evans and others.”

My use of that term was in direct response to that same editor’s use of the term about me.

I believe there are five sites where I have made changes to improve the quality of the page but with the second goal of leaving intact as much of the original text as possible. Being new to the Wikipedia-editing world, I was clumsy in the exact manner in which changes were made and how I communicated with other editors.

With regard to the comment that three of my edits remain, I would note that I see four references to the author of the book in question (all under the P P Quimby site). I admit to being mystified that my edits (including listing A Story Untold as a source) to the Quimby site have been left largely intact (with just a couple of minor tweaks by other editors), while references to A Story Untold at the following sites (Mary Baker Eddy, Julius Dresser, Warren Felt Evans, and Emma Curtis Hopkins) have all been expunged entirely. The edits to those four sites have also generally been erased. Metaphysical historian (talk) 22:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Can James Delingpole's blog turn into a reliable source by being "longstanding" in the real world? Or just in the fantasies of people who regularly try to move articles about denialists towards hagiographies? --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

In the talk page discussions, the editors don't consider Indian media sources as good sources, while they have written this "Reverse Love Jihad section", with few Indian media sources. They say that Indian media sources are supported by academic source. I found that the lone academic source, was written by Dr. Shahnawaz Ahmed Malik from Aligarh Muslim University.

I read the scholarly article, and in that article by Aligarh Muslim University faculty; the reverse love jihad section (inside the scholarly article, not Wikipedia article) is sourced from an Indian media coverage. And in the reverse love jihad section of Wikipedia article, the same Indian media coverage is used to expand the section. Means the same media source is used two times in the Reverse Love Jihad section. First directly, then indirectly as a scholarly article.

2402:3A80:111B:2A30:3569:2E50:AA35:C5DC (talk) 05:47, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Note- In this noticeboard, I am not discussing anything about Love Jihad. I am discussing about the section. The Reverse Love Jihad Section, is written with Indian media sources (including the AMU academic source, which quotes an Indian media coverage), but they always say on article talk page that Indian media sources are poor sources. (talk) 10:42, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

the Anglo-Muhammadan Oriental College (now Aligarh Muslim University) at Aligarh in 1875. It was India’s first centre of Islamic and Western higher education, with instruction given in English and modeled on Oxford. Aligarh became the intellectual cradle of the Muslim League and Pakistan.

Just for the sake of having eyes on this article, Lynn Hughes is the federal judge who ruled that a private employer in Texas could mandate COVID-19 vaccination of its employees. This appears to be the inspiration for edits . As it stands, the article seems highly out of balance. There is a disproportionate focus on controversial rulings that were overturned, given that a judge of this tenure is bound to have heard thousands of cases and had some proportion appealed and either affirmed or overturned. I would expect the ruling on COVID-19 will bring out more colorful responses. BD2412 T 17:31, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

A couple of new users associated with the low-carb community have recently joined Wikipedia commenting on this talk-page. They believe there is a "controversy" about saturated fat consumption, cardiovascular disease and other diseases. The mainstream scientific consensus is that a diet high in saturated fat is a risk for CVD but these users dispute this and are linking to healthline and studies funded by Nina Teicholz or written by Aseem Malhotra. This is obviously a false balance. Link to the talk-page Psychologist Guy (talk) 02:18, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The original article has been rewritten and renamed. The title is fringe/pov and although I haven't looked at content my guess is that it reflects the tone of the title. Doug Weller talk 20:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I just removed several sources in which loons accuse other loons of being in league with the Devil. This article and some related ones are probably good additions to watchlists. --Hob Gadling (talk) 02:22, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Seems to contain a real lot of undue fringe theorizing, but it looks like a lot of work to extract it from legitimate content. --Hob Gadling (talk) 02:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Newly created, looks like the fringe fork from and Persecutory delusion. --mfb (talk) 13:36, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

It might actually be *better* forked into its own article because the "Stalking" article is about actual stalking, while this one is about a weirdly common shared delusion which is an interesting and important topic in its own right.
Sorry about that. There were a LOT of AFDs, and just copying the text of the box without the links wouldn't have been right.

It's decidedly fringe content, and it seems too recent and obscure to be noteworthy fringe content. An article on the author was deleted in 2018. The for the book being notable is not grounded in facts, appearing to be ignorant of what the NASA ADS is. XOR'easter (talk) 00:27, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I almost put the redirect up for deletion, but then decided that redirects are cheap and it might be useful to have a link back. Good work. jps (talk) 17:22, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

This article is written terribly. As far as I can tell, this individual disappeared without a trace in June 2005, likely drowned. Since then, there have been claims in tabloid newspapers that this individual has been sighted in Mexico, but these appear totally unsubstantiated. This article lends a large undue amount of weight to these allegations and it needs signficiant cleanup. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Talk:Water fluoridation#removal of israel text - discussion from 2019/2020, but the text where the government of Israel justified its discontinuation of fluoridation is still in the article. What do people think? Pinging User:Jtbobwaysf and User:VdSV9 who discussed this back then. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:05, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

A new user is repeatedly adding POV to the lead that some dietitians support Mark Hyman's "pegan" diet. This is clearly false. The added reference was a holistic medicine/alternative medicine website. I have not seen any registered dietitians from reliable sources support Hyman's pegan diet, the added source was which promotes something called "holistic medicine". Parsley Health is sponsored by Goop so this is outright quackery. It is obviously a false balance to pretend some dietitians support it whilst some do not. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:08, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Apparently an editor has decided that MEDRS-compliant sources (e.g., med school textbooks) about human biology are unacceptable in Sex because doctors aren't necessarily biology experts, and only sources from the field of biology may be cited in the article. See Talk:Sex#Biological sex in humans and my talk page for proof that I'm not making this up. I'm going to bed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Medicine and biology are completely two different fields of academia end of story.

Okay but anyway I don’t think some of the sources she presented are reliable regarding the topic. Like I don’t understand why sociological sources should be included.CycoMa (talk) 07:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay sure. But one of her sources contradict a reliable source I presented.
While we tend to think of sex as a binary (either male or female) determined by looking at a baby's genitals, the evidence shows that sex is determined by multiple biological factors including chromosomes, hormones, gonads and secondary sex characteristics, as well as external genitalia. ... It is important to remember that sex and gender are two different things: a child or young person's biological sex may be different from their gender identity.
Sex is a biological concept. Asexual reproduction (cloning) is routine in microorganisms and some plants, but most vertebrates and all mammals have 2 distinct sexes. Even single-cell organisms have “mating types” to facilitate sexual reproduction. Only cells belonging to different mating types can fuse together to reproduce sexually (2, 3). Sexual reproduction allows for exchange of genetic information and promotes genetic diversity. The classical biological definition of the 2 sexes is that females have ovaries and make larger female gametes (eggs), whereas males have testes and make smaller male gametes (sperm); the 2 gametes fertilize to form the zygote, which has the potential to become a new individual. The advantage of this simple definition is first that it can be applied universally to any species of sexually reproducing organism. Second, it is a bedrock concept of evolution, because selection of traits may differ in the 2 sexes. Thirdly, the definition can be extended to the ovaries and testes, and in this way the categories—female and male—can be applied also to individuals who have gonads but do not make gametes.…Biological sex is dichotomous because of the different roles of each sex in reproduction.

Okay everyone I asked at WikiProject Medicine and they said that medical sources are fine for an article like sex. I’m very sorry about all this please forgive me for all this.CycoMa (talk) 17:54, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

New section "Torture-based deliberate creation" looks rather dubious and was removed. As I wrote this, it has been reverted back into the article.

The prevailing post-traumatic model of dissociation and dissociative disorders has historically been contested and are remnants of out-dated hypotheses that became popular in the 1980s (such as the fantasy-model and therapy-induced model)

The therapy-induced model is outdated? Is that true? --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:24, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Some determined section-blanking activity here lately. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:52, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I am involved in a disagreement as to whether psychoanalysis should be described as pseudoscience in the lede of the article. Jake Wartenberg (talk) 04:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Long section on piezo effect seems undue. Does anybody have an opinion or even a source? --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:06, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware that the Hessdalen lights aren't northern lights, I'm just joking around.

Huge article detailing exactly which theologian interpreted which Bible prophecy using the technique called "day-year principle", which is a magic idea reminiscent of creationists, homeopaths, Bible-code cranks, Nostradamus exegetes, and astrologers, as well as sympathetic magic and as-above-so-below thinking. Also makes me think of .

Most of it seems WP:UNDUE angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin-counter fancruft. I don't even know where to begin. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:29, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Study supporting Ivermectin as a COVID treatment withdrawn for impressive reasons
A medical student in London, Jack Lawrence, was among the first to identify serious concerns about the paper, leading to the retraction. He first became aware of the Elgazzar preprint when it was assigned to him by one of his lecturers for an assignment that formed part of his master’s degree. He found the introduction section of the paper appeared to have been almost entirely plagiarised. It appeared that the authors had run entire paragraphs from press releases and websites about ivermectin and Covid-19 through a thesaurus to change key words. “Humorously, this led to them changing ‘severe acute respiratory syndrome’ to ‘extreme intense respiratory syndrome’ on one occasion,” Lawrence said.
The Elgazzar study was one of the the largest and most promising showing the drug may help Covid patients, and has often been cited by proponents of the drug as evidence of its effectiveness. [...] “If you remove this one study from the scientific literature, suddenly there are very few positive randomised control trials of ivermectin for Covid-19. Indeed, if you get rid of just this research, most meta-analyses that have found positive results would have their conclusions entirely reversed.”

I saw , adding noises Bigfoot supposedly makes to List of unexplained sounds, and then noticed there is a whole section at Bigfoot about it Bigfoot#Alleged_behavior. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:41, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

There's an IP address who's edit-warring to insert content to promote the fringe view that Cuba is a democracy with free elections. The IP is using sources that are either bad or characterized (and I think there may also be some IP hopping going on). More eyeballs would be helpful. Neutralitytalk 17:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

This AfD concerns a poorly sourced section of the article that promotes the fringe theory that certain Disney Animated Canon villains are queer. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 20:58, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

The article has only two sources. One source is a link to our Discovery Channel article. The other is to a UFOlogists book. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:59, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Has been under a whitewashing attack for a few months. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:58, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

And another cross-namespace shortcut: WP:YESLABLEAK. If I didn't know better I'd think a WP:POINT was being made. Alexbrn (talk) 12:38, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Just because the wording of some text in support of the hypothesis seems biased, doesn’t justify deleting it.

Since User:Fitzrex has been CU-blocked, we're probably done here. Feel free to re-open if you disagree. Bishonen | tålk 08:45, 20 July 2021 (UTC).

Antivaxxer "". Is that so? --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Northrup is particularly concerned with reproductive system dysfunction and menstrual cycle irregularities as a result of COVID-19 vaccines, that have been documented by medical anthropologists, pharmacists and others
What is the point of asking me the same yes-no question I asked, turned into a no-yes question?
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user is promoting language theories about Vietnamese from a folk healing website to linguistics and history articles. . They are also adding ethnic supremacy theories. . This is not supported by any academic material. Please prevent them from continuing. (talk) 01:47, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I a section from this article which accused China of "Non Conventional Warfare" using the drug, while the sources were actually about a drug cartel operating out of a factory in China to smuggle into Canada. I've also requested RD2 for an unsourced conspiracy theory added and quickly removed in late June. Please keep a close eye on this article for conspiracy theories, especially the racist/xenophobic ones. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 02:47, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

At the article Medical genetics of Jews there's a user adding content about Nazis and ranting about the nature of sources used. They tried to get the article deleted through a case request at WP:DRN, which I closed as an improper filing. More eyes on that article would be helpful. I'm not entirely sure what their angle is, though the possibility that they're upset over some legitimate problems with the article seems real, if remote. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:25, 22 July 2021 (UTC)